Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Grill Pheiss
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Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Grill Pheiss » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:13 am

or even by the sample, precisely? hugefully usefull when laying drums and/or most low-end heavy elements
where timephase is crucial. I find myself a bit handcuffed when trying to do such a surgical-precision
task in Live, and doing it with the grid OFF and with the mouse just beats the purpouse of preciselly landing
quickly on what will sound right.

When layering, the optimal workflow seems to quick-firing little sub-millisecond pushes to clips, precisely, until it sounds right.

I found this thread but I can't find anywhere if this has been addressed or not?

https://www.ableton.com/answers/nudge-c ... ement-view

Stromkraft
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:00 pm

Grill Pheiss wrote:doing it with the grid OFF and with the mouse just beats the purpouse of preciselly landing
quickly on what will sound right.
How do you want to do this specifically?
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Tarekith
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Tarekith » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:00 pm

Click on the "D" on the right side of the master channel in session view. This will open a tab at the bottom of every track that lets you shift the entire track forward or backward in milliseconds. Or maybe it's samples, I forgot what the number represents.

chrk
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by chrk » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:14 pm

Tarekith wrote:Click on the "D" on the right side of the master channel in session view. This will open a tab at the bottom of every track that lets you shift the entire track forward or backward in milliseconds. Or maybe it's samples, I forgot what the number represents.
Whichever you want, just click on the "ms" or "Smp" next to the number to toggle. :wink:

Stromkraft
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:42 pm

Tarekith wrote:Click on the "D" on the right side of the master channel in session view. This will open a tab at the bottom of every track that lets you shift the entire track forward or backward in milliseconds. Or maybe it's samples, I forgot what the number represents.
It should be known that this affects all other tracks if you shift something early, i e with a minus value. If you shift one track with -7ms all other tracks are delayed 7ms. As I understand this must affect latency with the same amount. I used to do this years ago but stopped.

Also the time shifts do not survive an export. Though you could rerecord I suppose.

In this case, this method appears as overkill as I think the OP seem to want to be able to do detailed editing rather than shift whole tracks in time. If I want 4 beats in one section to line up with another track I don't want to shift the whole track.

How about the nudge you do in Push? Can't the new Push 2 do this also with audio? And isn't there a third option if you zoom in without snap? Upgrading so can't check.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:47 pm

Grill Pheiss wrote:or even by the sample, precisely? hugefully usefull when laying drums and/or most low-end heavy elements
where timephase is crucial.

I use Waves inPhase for this though not for sections. I think you could do it on sections if you make a cut in the clip first or just have it active on the sections you want to slide. Certainly beats shifting the whole track with all that entails.

Nevertheless, I do think what you want is detailed micro editing, but you gotta be more clear.
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Grill Pheiss
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Grill Pheiss » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:01 pm

Tarekith wrote:Click on the "D" on the right side of the master channel in session view. This will open a tab at the bottom of every track that lets you shift the entire track forward or backward in milliseconds. Or maybe it's samples, I forgot what the number represents.
Yes I'm aware of this, however not only does that have an implication on overall project latency response (try and experience it with a vsti and a usb keyboard) but this
shifts entire tracks, not individual clips.
Last edited by Grill Pheiss on Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grill Pheiss
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Grill Pheiss » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:03 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
Grill Pheiss wrote:or even by the sample, precisely? hugefully usefull when laying drums and/or most low-end heavy elements
where timephase is crucial.

I use Waves inPhase for this though not for sections. I think you could do it on sections if you make a cut in the clip first or just have it active on the sections you want to slide. Certainly beats shifting the whole track with all that entails.

Nevertheless, I do think what you want is detailed micro editing, but you gotta be more clear.
YES, detailed micro editing of the timing of individual CLIPS with precision, and in a speedy way. Nudging has been around in every DAW for a while now, there's quite a few videos on this
on youtube I think

But it is not yet implemented in Live I believe

Stromkraft
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:34 pm

Grill Pheiss wrote:
Stromkraft wrote: Nevertheless, I do think what you want is detailed micro editing, but you gotta be more clear.
YES, detailed micro editing of the timing of individual CLIPS with precision, and in a speedy way. Nudging has been around in every DAW for a while now, there's quite a few videos on this
on youtube I think

But it is not yet implemented in Live I believe
That depends. I'm nudging MIDI data all the time, but maybe not with sample or ms control. With audio there's warp editing. Again perhaps not with the level of control you'd like. And Finally I nudge on Push with what that entails.

What happens if you zoom in?
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Grill Pheiss
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Grill Pheiss » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:19 am

Stromkraft wrote:
Grill Pheiss wrote:
Stromkraft wrote: Nevertheless, I do think what you want is detailed micro editing, but you gotta be more clear.
YES, detailed micro editing of the timing of individual CLIPS with precision, and in a speedy way. Nudging has been around in every DAW for a while now, there's quite a few videos on this
on youtube I think

But it is not yet implemented in Live I believe
That depends. I'm nudging MIDI data all the time, but maybe not with sample or ms control. With audio there's warp editing. Again perhaps not with the level of control you'd like. And Finally I nudge on Push with what that entails.

What happens if you zoom in?
Ok I see where the misunderstanding occurs -

What I am refering to really is nudging clips in the arrangement view. the usages for this ability are countless but here's a common one : let's say you want to layer 3 kicks and adjust the alignement of one of the kicks in relationship to the 2 others.

-Doing it in the warp windows prevents you from seeing what's you're doing IN RELATIONSHIP to the 2 other kicks and can get confusing quickly. The ideal workflow is to nudge one kick and get immediate visual feedback of where you're moving the transient, in relationship to the others

-Doing it with the track delay function actually puts a toll on the latency response of the project AND also doesn't allow for individual adjustement for clips wich is needed if you're doing something else than adjusting LAYERS. And 0 visual feedback

-Doing it with the mouse is tedious and not as precise than by the super small increments of a Nudging function

-Doing it with a plugin also acts on the entire track, not individual clips, not usefull like I mentioned earlier if for example youre just playing with the musical timing of a part, and not
just doing some layering. And 0 visual feedback
Last edited by Grill Pheiss on Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

swishniak
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by swishniak » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:52 pm

+1 for nudge, please

Stromkraft
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:32 pm

Grill Pheiss wrote:
Ok I see where the misunderstanding occurs -

What I am refering to really is nudging clips in the arrangement view.

The ideal workflow is to nudge one kick and get immediate visual feedback of where you're moving the transient, in relationship to the others

This is how I work. I'm zooming in so that I see what I'm doing. That's why I asked you about this.
Grill Pheiss wrote: -Doing it with a plugin also acts on the entire track, not individual clips,
This is not correct as plug-ins listens to automation. They can be active with a certain setting in one clip, a bar, a 16th or whatever and with another setting somewhere else later or turned off completely.
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Grill Pheiss
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Grill Pheiss » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:37 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
Grill Pheiss wrote:
Ok I see where the misunderstanding occurs -

What I am refering to really is nudging clips in the arrangement view.

The ideal workflow is to nudge one kick and get immediate visual feedback of where you're moving the transient, in relationship to the others

This is how I work. I'm zooming in so that I see what I'm doing. That's why I asked you about this.
Grill Pheiss wrote: -Doing it with a plugin also acts on the entire track, not individual clips,
This is not correct as plug-ins listens to automation. They can be active with a certain setting in one clip, a bar, a 16th or whatever and with another setting somewhere else later or turned off completely.
maybe so but it would still be a "hack" versus doing it quickly and efficiently with a dedicated function called "nudging" ;)

cmprvndncr
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by cmprvndncr » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:44 am

Stromkraft wrote:
Tarekith wrote:Click on the "D" on the right side of the master channel in session view. This will open a tab at the bottom of every track that lets you shift the entire track forward or backward in milliseconds. Or maybe it's samples, I forgot what the number represents.
It should be known that this affects all other tracks if you shift something early, i e with a minus value. If you shift one track with -7ms all other tracks are delayed 7ms. As I understand this must affect latency with the same amount. I used to do this years ago but stopped.

Also the time shifts do not survive an export. Though you could rerecord I suppose.
Is this for realsies!? Holy cow... No wonder some of my tastiest grooves have lost their magic funk when I export :'(

Is there REALLY still no way to nudge clips in arrangement view? Does anyone have a workaround that is good!? Using the mouse is so slow, and it's not even an advanced feature by any means... In Pro Tools you just selection the region, and boom, nudge by global nudge value which can be set at a seperate rate to the global quantization grid...

Please ableton pleeeeezz.

Is this adressed in 10??? You can nudge in clip edit view in ableton, just bring it to the arrangement view... I know there are a bunch of arrangement view enhancements happening in 10... I really hope this ages old much needed basic workflow function is implemented... Look at ableton reducing me to a whiney beetch.

Stromkraft
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Re: Is there a way to nudge audio/midi clips by the millisecond

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:08 am

cmprvndncr wrote:
Is this adressed in 10??? You can nudge in clip edit view in ableton, just bring it to the arrangement view... I know there are a bunch of arrangement view enhancements happening in 10...
Yes, this is now very possible. You can't move a clip before 1.1.1 though.
Make some music!

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