the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

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Tarekith
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Tarekith » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:42 pm

Reason's mixer has EQ and compression added on each channel already, and they're all visible at the same time is what I think he's saying. So you can see at a glance say the EQ settings for every channel at once, or which ones have compression enabled. Yeah you can DO those things in Live too, but in terms of seeing a broad overview of the mix settings, it's not as simple.

Not saying one way is better than the other, but I can understand why someone might want that.

Stromkraft
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:25 pm

Tarekith wrote:Reason's mixer has EQ and compression added on each channel already, and they're all visible at the same time is what I think he's saying. So you can see at a glance say the EQ settings for every channel at once, or which ones have compression enabled.
OK, while that sounds cluttered to me, these could of course be hidden as an option just as with anything in the Live mixer tracks and I can see the benefits too. Maybe the buggy showdevices view was a step in this direction?

What I don't like about this idea is that it's trying to mimic hardware, rather than accepting the mixer is on a computer screen. I'm all for overview though, but it should be done on terms of what the Live interface is about and end up in functionality you can use in a flexible way.
Make some music!

mpr47563634
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by mpr47563634 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:05 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
mpr47563634 wrote:The problem is you can't mix from the mixing desk, you need to change parameters going in each channel separately.

I just don't see why Ableton shouldn't have a proper mixing desk like Reason or Protools. That's all.
??? I can't understand you on this. I don't see any upside in Protools or Reason and as I recall you still need to add your tools in both apps.

I would understand you if you focused on the mixers themselves. I can see that you can prefer one specific over another. Personally, I think Logic's mixer is pretty good if a bit cluttered. It's not straightforward as I actually think the Live mixer is. I'm doing more advanced stuff in the Live mixer than what I did in Logic. Once you get your head around it, there are few things you can't do in Live. Those things can of course still be decisive points, depending on your work flow preferences.

Possibly I'd agree with you if you focused on specific features and work flows. I can see some good ideas for improving the Live mixer could come up in such a discussion. Perhaps in a new thread?

Again, mixing desk, single channels with all you need to mix (not just a fader and pan pots), just like in a normal recording studio, SSL, you know the drill (or not).

mpr47563634
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by mpr47563634 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:09 pm

Tarekith wrote:Reason's mixer has EQ and compression added on each channel already, and they're all visible at the same time is what I think he's saying. So you can see at a glance say the EQ settings for every channel at once, or which ones have compression enabled. Yeah you can DO those things in Live too, but in terms of seeing a broad overview of the mix settings, it's not as simple.

Not saying one way is better than the other, but I can understand why someone might want that.
Yup. I really like the fact that once you've created your track, you can focus on the mixer and craft your sound.
I know I switched from Reason to Ableton and I could always go back to Reason. But Ableton has a lot of other features (M4L, very good warp) Reason doesn't have.

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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by mpr47563634 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:12 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
mpr47563634 wrote:The problem is you can't mix from the mixing desk, you need to change parameters going in each channel separately.

I just don't see why Ableton shouldn't have a proper mixing desk like Reason or Protools. That's all.
??? I can't understand you on this. I don't see any upside in Protools or Reason and as I recall you still need to add your tools in both apps.

I would understand you if you focused on the mixers themselves. I can see that you can prefer one specific over another. Personally, I think Logic's mixer is pretty good if a bit cluttered. It's not straightforward as I actually think the Live mixer is. I'm doing more advanced stuff in the Live mixer than what I did in Logic. Once you get your head around it, there are few things you can't do in Live. Those things can of course still be decisive points, depending on your work flow preferences.

Possibly I'd agree with you if you focused on specific features and work flows. I can see some good ideas for improving the Live mixer could come up in such a discussion. Perhaps in a new thread?

Logic and Reason's mixers are totally different. In Logic you still have to add plugins to each channel and you can't tweak anything unless you open the plugin.
In Reason what you have is basicly a copy of an SSL mixing desk and each channel has its filters, compressors, gate and more goodies you can tweak directly.

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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by mholloway » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:19 pm

Ableton's mix plugins aren't designed such that they could be represented easily or usefully in a small mixer strip. How does EQ8 translate to a small space in a mixer strip? Even the Compressor would be drastically reduced to fit in that sort of space.

But I get it, that's the approach you like, visually, you want all channels with all mix devices visible in one space, even if that means a drastically reduced parameter set for each of those devices. Sure, reason crams it all in there, because 1. those devices have fewer controls than their counterparts in Ableton, and by a wide measure, and 2. they look TINY, use tiny fonts, tiny knobs, tiny everything, and with lots of channels in a session, that means dozens if not hundreds of tiny knobs covering your screen.. if that = LESS clutter to you, well than I'm happy to be drowning in my Ableton clutter. I like to use my Ears for mixing, not my Eyes reading tiny knobs whose current Value is only meaningful relative to what I'm hearing anyway.

But honestly, what do you want Ableton to do, create a whole new batch of mix devices with fewer parameters just so they can be used, visually, in a vertical mixer approach? Or to present minimized, reduced parameter versions of the tools they already have? I think they wisely decided that the "vertical mixer device" paradigm belongs in the hardware studio, not in modern software, and that's why we've never seen it. But maybe that's just me (and Stormkraft :P)

-M
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my dark jazz / noir music made with Ableton Live: https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp. ... guilt-noir

Tarekith
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Tarekith » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:59 am

Yeah, it's a paradigm that wouldn't work well with the way Live is set up. I use Studio One a lot for client mixdowns, and it's definitely helpful being able to see a little EQ overview on each track (that's using EQ anyway) as well as GR meters on each track that has a compressor or limiter on it. Not a life-changing thing, but speeds up finding what you're looking for in a busy mix.

Anyway, not in Live and probably won't be. :)

mrgrim3
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by mrgrim3 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:07 am

I just want them to focus on the software instead of things like push and link really

MusicIsMath
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by MusicIsMath » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:26 pm

If you want that type of mixer view, then go for reason.
Ableton was primarily designed to be a tool for performers to be able to perform their tracks live, without the overhead and cluttered look of other DAWS.
You can click on a track and see all the relevant information pertaining to that track, which is all you should need.
Adding in a big mixer interface might be nice for mixdowns and such, but is of little use whilst playing live, after all, most people will have the vast majority of what they have recorded, bounced to stems or clips with all the heavy processing stuff done and printed, so that when they play live, all the effects they use can be less resource hungry and more performance based.

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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 pm

Regarding EQ and compressor in the channel strip, I have that feature in DP9 but honestly I don't use it much. I like to be able to use other EQ's and compressors etc. Just like Reason and I would assume Studio One, DP allows this feature for their built in embedded plug ins only, which are great, but sometimes I want a Fabfilter or PSP compressor and DMG EQ etc.

My "I love Ableton but.." concerns are different I guess.

I'm really not that thrilled that Ableton are more and more worried about becoming another Digital Audio Workstation, about replacing Pro Tools, Logic DP etc. which IMO anyway they will never, ever do. They will only carve out yet another niche of loyal users. They seem to have lost their initial market, which was as a compliment to traditional DAWs. After Ableton 4 came out and we had VST/AU instruments the surge of people requesting DAW features grew deafening on the forums at least. This new direction for what was once an audio only recorded samples mangler with an intuitive simplicity has resulted in Live being 'just another DAW' in many ways, unless you have only used Live and aren't coming from some other DAW, Live is obviously now just as complicated and filled with internal logic as any DAW really. The simplicity of earlier versions has grown into what I would say without a doubt are solutions that make sense only to Live: Racks, MIDI limits, M4L in general, user populated VST parameter lists, etc.

Every DAW out there has areas that are just as intuitive and helpful as the old school good points of Live. For every Live positive like drag and drop VST plug ins and easy elastic audio DP and Logic have easy key commands for moving and releasing all faders, better automation curves, Capture Last Take As Recording etc. Ableton to a degree IMO lost the plot, and succumbed to less than elegant solutions to user feature requests that result in Live being half backed. Claims of Live being a "modern DAW" fall flat in my mind in terms of user experience, and only ring true in its 15 year old modern GUI.

I still like and use Live, Bitwig doesn't interest me much (they seem also more concerned with DAW features than performance), but I find I'm using it about 25% of the time these days. And just to cement how out of the loop of the modern Live is becoming, I've ordered a Slate Raven, a relatively cheap software and multi touch interface. Image



It works elegantly with DP9 from all accounts, but Live has some issues GUI with it as reported by end users. Notice the pad setup in the image, that's to launch scenes etc. because Live is somewhat buggy that way. Meanwhile Bitwig designed their DAW to run on the Microsoft Surface from the ground up. So, 30 year old DAW Digital Performer works well with a touch screen, new DAW runs on the Surface, and Live hardly works on touch screens.... but yeah Push 2 allows integrated Simpler support. :x

Grill Pheiss
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Grill Pheiss » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:11 am

Machinesworking wrote:Regarding EQ and compressor in the channel strip, I have that feature in DP9 but honestly I don't use it much. I like to be able to use other EQ's and compressors etc. Just like Reason and I would assume Studio One, DP allows this feature for their built in embedded plug ins only, which are great, but sometimes I want a Fabfilter or PSP compressor and DMG EQ etc.

My "I love Ableton but.." concerns are different I guess.

I'm really not that thrilled that Ableton are more and more worried about becoming another Digital Audio Workstation, about replacing Pro Tools, Logic DP etc. which IMO anyway they will never, ever do. They will only carve out yet another niche of loyal users. They seem to have lost their initial market, which was as a compliment to traditional DAWs. After Ableton 4 came out and we had VST/AU instruments the surge of people requesting DAW features grew deafening on the forums at least. This new direction for what was once an audio only recorded samples mangler with an intuitive simplicity has resulted in Live being 'just another DAW' in many ways, unless you have only used Live and aren't coming from some other DAW, Live is obviously now just as complicated and filled with internal logic as any DAW really. The simplicity of earlier versions has grown into what I would say without a doubt are solutions that make sense only to Live: Racks, MIDI limits, M4L in general, user populated VST parameter lists, etc.

Every DAW out there has areas that are just as intuitive and helpful as the old school good points of Live. For every Live positive like drag and drop VST plug ins and easy elastic audio DP and Logic have easy key commands for moving and releasing all faders, better automation curves, Capture Last Take As Recording etc. Ableton to a degree IMO lost the plot, and succumbed to less than elegant solutions to user feature requests that result in Live being half backed. Claims of Live being a "modern DAW" fall flat in my mind in terms of user experience, and only ring true in its 15 year old modern GUI.

I still like and use Live, Bitwig doesn't interest me much (they seem also more concerned with DAW features than performance), but I find I'm using it about 25% of the time these days. And just to cement how out of the loop of the modern Live is becoming, I've ordered a Slate Raven, a relatively cheap software and multi touch interface. Image



It works elegantly with DP9 from all accounts, but Live has some issues GUI with it as reported by end users. Notice the pad setup in the image, that's to launch scenes etc. because Live is somewhat buggy that way. Meanwhile Bitwig designed their DAW to run on the Microsoft Surface from the ground up. So, 30 year old DAW Digital Performer works well with a touch screen, new DAW runs on the Surface, and Live hardly works on touch screens.... but yeah Push 2 allows integrated Simpler support. :x
I think that you might be like me then... I personally would love clarity in the direction tbat Ableton is taking with the future of Live. Honnestly what keeps me from working 100% in live are small workflow details that have a BIG impact in the speed of the production process.

AND it's not a matter of "not learning new ways" or "refusing to learn something new"! It's just that for a lot of little things, Ableton's way is just twice (if not more) as slow compared to most of the other daws.

I don't really mind using 2 softwares to get the job done and rely on Live solely for instrumental production but the barrier that keep a lot of people from finishing projects within Live doesn't seem that high for Ableton to jump...

It would be nice to know where Ableton's heading...

h2ogun99
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by h2ogun99 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:49 pm

Envelopes points that snap to the grid, would be nice.

Great thread!

L

Grill Pheiss
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Grill Pheiss » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:31 pm

h2ogun99 wrote:Envelopes points that snap to the grid, would be nice.

Great thread!

L
true and relevant to workflow - added

Tarekith
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Tarekith » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:58 am

My only complaint is that there's a few menu commands that have no key commands, and that would speed things up for me. Something like Crop Clip I use CONSTANTLY, and there's no way to do this without right-clicking and choosing it each time. Not even with OSX keyboard shortcuts, since it's context sensitive and not a permanent menu item.

Grill Pheiss
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Re: the ultimate "I love Ableton BUT..." thread

Post by Grill Pheiss » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:39 pm

Tarekith wrote:My only complaint is that there's a few menu commands that have no key commands, and that would speed things up for me. Something like Crop Clip I use CONSTANTLY, and there's no way to do this without right-clicking and choosing it each time. Not even with OSX keyboard shortcuts, since it's context sensitive and not a permanent menu item.
Ideally there would be a way to create/customize key commands or create macros (Studio One comes to mind)

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