How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Auto2000
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:52 pm

How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Auto2000 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:40 am

Hi guys!
I like to route my tracks in a project into corresponding groups (the groups usually are: Drums, Leads, Pads, FX, etc...) so that I have control over similar channels at once and so that I can process them together during mixing.
One thing that I can't understand though is how to route return channels the same way: I want to route all my return channels into one track (or one group) to control and process them together.

However a strange thing happens when I'm trying to do it: if I route a return channel into a group and then solo that return channel, what I hear is... the whole project! All the tracks are sounding simultaneously, like if I didn't solo the return channel!

I shot a small video of what's happening:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvvywsu0sg46t ... 6.mov?dl=0

At first the whole track plays, then I solo a drum group (all fine, just drums playing), then the Bass, the Synth, the Melody groups - all good, only the solo'd groups can be heard.

But then I route a return into a 'Sends' group and solo it... the whole project is being played!
What is going on and how can I do what I want to do?

Thank you in advance for all the kind help!

Auto2000
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:52 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Auto2000 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:51 am

No one? :(

silversurfer60
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:23 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by silversurfer60 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:06 pm

Hi,

look at the different, when you solo normal tracks and return tracks. Solo doesn't work in return, if you solo one return track, the mute knob of the other return tracks doesn't change, in normal tracks it changed to grey. So the solution is, to mute all the return tracks except the one you want to hear.

Auto2000
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:52 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Auto2000 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:19 pm

Makes sense. Thank you for the reply!
So anyway, how do I do what I'm looking for?

sounddevisor
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:31 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by sounddevisor » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:11 pm

Return tracks have an "Audio To" drop-down menu, just like all other tracks. You should be able to create your "Return Group" track as an audio track, and then set the "Audio To" of each of your return tracks to "Return Group."

If I understood your question, that should give you the result you're looking for.

Auto2000
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:52 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Auto2000 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:40 am

That's exactly what I'm doing right now, to no avail.
Can you try it yourself? I also thought it'd work.

LFO8
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 7:12 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by LFO8 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:28 am

It seems that it's not possible for groups as groups already receive the audio from the tracks belonging to that group.
ImageAsylum Sound Music and Sound Design

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:38 pm

LFO8 wrote:It seems that it's not possible for groups as groups already receive the audio from the tracks belonging to that group.
An existing group doesn't have to receive this audio. I use this method myself for side-chaining so I know that it works. It's important to turn off any sends you're not using on the receiving group or you'll get phasing issues.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:41 pm

Auto2000 wrote:
However a strange thing happens when I'm trying to do it: if I route a return channel into a group and then solo that return channel, what I hear is... the whole project! All the tracks are sounding simultaneously, like if I didn't solo the return channel!
What's going to the returns? You'll obviously hear every track that is sent to there.
Make some music!

Auto2000
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:52 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Auto2000 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:51 pm

That's obvious.
But instead, I hear every track in the project.

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:11 pm

Auto2000 wrote:That's obvious.
But instead, I hear every track in the project.

OK, I think you better share a version of this project. It's impossible to second guess what it could be. When I've experienced something like this I did inadvertently send audio indirectly to the returns without realizing it.

I have never experienced exactly what you describe and I think chances are you're missing something or you could be on to something. But If this can't be reproduced on another system that's information. So try it yourself on another system and let new eyes look at the project if this doesn't lead to the cause. You don't have to leave anything in it. Just leave the routings.
Make some music!

silversurfer60
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:23 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by silversurfer60 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:44 pm

Again,

look at the behavior of the solo and the mute knobs of the return tracks and the normal tracks, there is a big different. When you solo a normal track, in all other tracks the mute knob changed to grey!!! If you solo a return track, the mute knob of all other return tracks, with Audio to your group channel, will not change to grey, they will stay yellow, that means, they are not muted, they are audible.

This behavior is only, when you choose in the Audio to menue of your return tracks any other track then the master track. And that's the reason, why you hear all of your return tracks in your return group track. Your only solution is, to mute all the return tracks except the one you want to hear in your group return track.

You have only this choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:47 am

Auto2000 wrote:That's obvious.
But instead, I hear every track in the project.
A simple test shows that soloing a return track that is sent to a set up audio effects track will play back this signal chain including the effect on the receiving audio effects track. Here I hear only track 3, not the 2nd track with drums as these aren't sent to return 3:
Image

Therefore it's highly likely your setup includes something else affecting your outcome. Follow the signals.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:52 am

silversurfer60 wrote:Again,
look at the behavior of the solo and the mute knobs of the return tracks and the normal tracks, there is a big different. When you solo a normal track, in all other tracks the mute knob changed to grey!!! If you solo a return track, the mute knob of all other return tracks, with Audio to your group channel, will not change to grey, they will stay yellow, that means, they are not muted, they are audible.
Unless I'm missing some detail that must nevertheless be seen as being outside of the scope of this discussion, this is just not how Live works as far as I can tell. Soloing this return track plays back that part of the signal chain, it does not solo the return track, it solos the receiving audio track as that is where the signal is routed. All other tracks are muted including normal tracks.

While I can't rule out that a more complex setup won't yield a somewhat different outcome this would not be part of the basic functionality of Live routing. Please suggest an experiment that shows your points.
Make some music!

silversurfer60
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:23 pm

Re: How to route a return channel's signal into a group?

Post by silversurfer60 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:18 pm

Image

solo a normal track. all other tracks are muted.

Image

solo a return track, when audio to the group return track is choosen in all return tracks. This is your case, one return is solo, but the others are not muted, so you can hear them all in the return group track.


Image

solo a return track, when audio to the group return track is choosen only in one return track. Now the other return tracks are muted, but its pointless, because the are not routed to your return group track. Similar to the image of STROMKRAFT.

Look at the behavior of the mute and solo knobs.

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