432hz default setting change

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
The Unknown
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:31 am

432hz default setting change

Post by The Unknown » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:20 pm

How do I set the default for my Frequency Tone to 432hz.?

Division Monarchy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by Division Monarchy » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:19 pm

Ableton doesn't do this yet. I wish they would. But for everything to be in tune at 432, detune the synths by -32 in the fine tune.

stringtapper
Posts: 6302
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by stringtapper » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:41 pm

Dear Jesus,

Please let this nonsense die.

Thanks, ST.
Unsound Designer

stringtapper
Posts: 6302
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by stringtapper » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:43 pm

Division Monarchy wrote:Ableton doesn't do this yet. I wish they would. But for everything to be in tune at 432, detune the synths by -32 in the fine tune.
But the actual difference between 440Hz and 432Hz is 31.735176¢.

If 432Hz is so important why are you ok with an approximation?
Unsound Designer

yur2die4
Posts: 7154
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by yur2die4 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:47 pm

Although I don't buy into this 432.09 mumbo jumbo, I do think a feature request for a global tuning and global temperament settings (btw, temperaments would have far more of an influence on the tonality of your music than just changing the tuning, if you were to change to 432, and play in C#, you would still have to retune Again based on the exact harmonic ratio of a major second interval above A, which would not set C# as '-32 cents' from the standard).

Is there already a feature request for this option? I am pretty sure it is in a few other daws, I am not sure how it translates between other vsts.

With Live devices, the only way I can think to get different temperaments is to use 12 instances of the Scale device in a huge rack with only one active note per instance, and retuning each instance of an instrument slightly.

Anyway, if you are doing 432hz, and you play in a key other than A major or minor and base the hz of that root on equal temperament, you're already deviating from having a 'perfect harmony' to 432 :P

If you make dance music, I'd stick to 440 (because your music might sound off key when played with other tracks in a dj set), if you're doing anything else, give 432 a go I guess.

Last tip, if you decide not to change all your synths to -32 cents, the alternative is to record your track slightly fast, render it, then slow it down a little until it is at 432hz.

Division Monarchy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by Division Monarchy » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:49 pm

stringtapper wrote:Dear Jesus,

Please let this nonsense die.

Thanks, ST.

I don't find it as much nonsense as it is letting artists experiment with tones and frequencies. 440 is really only a standard in modern western music. Personally, I like my music to be a little more out of tha standard. I also want to start incorporating exotic instruments that are in different ranges. The ability to change the frequency doesn't take anything away from anyone that makes music in the standard of 440. Whether the 432 thing is a total myth, who knows. I don't think it's a far fetched idea that everything in existence involves some frequency. Part of the artistic aspect of music is trying to tap into that idea. It's more about finding inspiration than anything else, and for some working out of a certain frequency does that. It's not much different than a painter using a particular colour pallette.

stringtapper
Posts: 6302
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by stringtapper » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:59 pm

Division Monarchy wrote:I don't find it as much nonsense as it is letting artists experiment with tones and frequencies. 440 is really only a standard in modern western music. Personally, I like my music to be a little more out of tha standard. I also want to start incorporating exotic instruments that are in different ranges. The ability to change the frequency doesn't take anything away from anyone that makes music in the standard of 440. Whether the 432 thing is a total myth, who knows. I don't think it's a far fetched idea that everything in existence involves some frequency. Part of the artistic aspect of music is trying to tap into that idea. It's more about finding inspiration than anything else, and for some working out of a certain frequency does that. It's not much different than a painter using a particular colour pallette.
Right, you can't even explain why you use it besides "it's inspirational."

And that's pretty much par for the course with the whole 432Hz thing.

And just to clarify some things for you:

Being "out of tha standard" by simply using a different tuning reference frequency is about as rebellious as wearing mirror tinted sunglasses. Simply tuning everything 31.7 cents off from the standard reference point is not unique and certainly not very creative because at the end of the day you're still using 12-tone equal temperament.

If going against standards is your thing then looking into entirely different tuning systems (Just Intonation, Hermode Tuning, etc.) can bring something actually unique to the table.
Unsound Designer

Division Monarchy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by Division Monarchy » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:22 pm

I don't disagree with that because there is more to it than being at 432, such as the actual scale being used. But if one simply feels more inspired, that is all that matters even if they can't explain it. What I would like to see in Ableton are the options that Logic has for tuning and scales.

stringtapper
Posts: 6302
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by stringtapper » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:25 pm

Just one another point:
Division Monarchy wrote:It's not much different than a painter using a particular colour pallette.
It's actually completely different. The way we perceive colors is very different from how we perceive pitch and it makes for a spurious analogy to equate the two.

A better analogy is between color and timbre. Timbre is the aspect of a sound that gives it some kind of "identity" to our ears and is a result of the spectral components of the sound. Before electronics came into play composers used instrumentation and performance techniques as their "color palette." Now we can create just about any "color" imaginable using electronic synthesis.

The point being that the frequency of one musical note or event doesn't really correlate to visual color. It's the combination of frequencies either as spectral components of a single sound or as an ensemble of distinct instruments that makes up the "palette" that a composer uses.
Unsound Designer

fishmonkey
Posts: 4478
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:09 am

stringtapper wrote:Just one another point:
Division Monarchy wrote:It's not much different than a painter using a particular colour pallette.
It's actually completely different. The way we perceive colors is very different from how we perceive pitch and it makes for a spurious analogy to equate the two.

A better analogy is between color and timbre. Timbre is the aspect of a sound that gives it some kind of "identity" to our ears and is a result of the spectral components of the sound. Before electronics came into play composers used instrumentation and performance techniques as their "color palette." Now we can create just about any "color" imaginable using electronic synthesis.

The point being that the frequency of one musical note or event doesn't really correlate to visual color. It's the combination of frequencies either as spectral components of a single sound or as an ensemble of distinct instruments that makes up the "palette" that a composer uses.
hmmm, i have to disagree here.

from a perceptual point of view it can be argued that our subjective experiences of colour and pitch are analogous, both being closely related to wavelength/frequency. people with chromesthesia generally associate darker colours with lower pitched notes, and lighter colours with higher pitched notes.

i think your conception of 'colour' in this context is far too broad. you seem to be including texture, tints, patterns, contrast, etc. all within the definition of colour. a visual artist has colour and a whole lot of other techniques to create a visual experience.

yur2die4
Posts: 7154
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:48 am

When it comes to colors, you have a color wheel.

Now imagine it goes from black inside to white outside. Those would be your low and high octaves, so to speak.

Next, the colors of the wheel are the tones within an octave. Although, it might be common to skip around in patterns (like the circle of fifths) and use complimentary colors/tones.

The overall painting may have a color theme or tint to it. The difference between 440 and 432 isn't so much a different set of colors as it is, changing the angle of the lights on your painting (or maybe nudging the hue slightly so their faces are more red, or less red).

Timbre would be the blending of octaves and overtones of colors in certain spaces. The layout is the arrangement etc.

But I'm really just sitting here, sipping a coffee, pondering this analogy. I wish we were all sitting around a table having this conversation for the fuck of it haha

fishmonkey
Posts: 4478
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:31 am

yur2die4 wrote: But I'm really just sitting here, sipping a coffee, pondering this analogy. I wish we were all sitting around a table having this conversation for the fuck of it haha
yeah, i'm in!

Angstrom
Posts: 14921
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Contact:

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by Angstrom » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:28 am

Bear in mind that if you tune A to 432hz that makes middle C 512hz, and one octave down from that is 256hz, does that seem familiar?
256, 512, 1024 ?

Digital, it's binary.
Just think : yin and yang, but digital, like computers. Now, imagine a "composer" from scotland blogging about it and then add in a vague reference to Stonehenge! Throw in some plates with sand on and a distance to the moon in arbitrary units and what have you got.

Popcorn. Get your popcorn here. Freshly resonated chakra popcorn.

yur2die4
Posts: 7154
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:06 am

If C was 512, what would G be? :)

We must also consider that these 'numbers' we are tossing around, and the coincidence of the multiples in C (in an equal temperament relation to A), are only related to hz, which come from a frequency per second. Whatever a second is... I hear there are a lot of them in a day, in a year, etc

chapelier fou
Posts: 6011
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: 432hz default setting change

Post by chapelier fou » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:25 am

Division Monarchy wrote:Ableton doesn't do this yet. I wish they would. But for everything to be in tune at 432, detune the synths by -32 in the fine tune.
That's why there is no negative detune in Operator !! :lol:
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
MacStudio M1Max 32Go OS 12.3.1

Post Reply