Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

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stringtapper
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by stringtapper » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:01 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:Don't see how the path of least resistance is to say C minor when the first chord is C major.
Notice I qualified it with "or at least a key/mode of three flats" and that's ultimately what I mean. That the path of least resistance is for the piece to sit within a key signature of three flats, which would allow all of the chords except the C major to be diatonic. If the progression sounds like C minor (C Aeolian to be exact, because of the minor v chord) and then we instead get C major, there's an historical precedent for this kind of usage, the Picardy Third.
Martin Gifford wrote:I reckon any jazz guy would say C mixolydian.
Jazz guy here, and I wouldn't say C Mixolydian mostly because there's no evidence of an A-natural being in the piece judging from the chords we've been given (as I pointed out previously). There is an A-natural in the C Mixolydian scale. This is why it's weird to apply C Mixolydian and then say that Ab is the odd man, when we've never seen another type of "A" to tell us what a "normal" A would be in the context of this progression. See what I mean?

Maybe the confusion here is that modes are generally applied to modern music in two ways: (1) jazz chord/scale theory where each chord has a corresponding mode that one can play over it, and (2) true modal music where the melodic phrasing outlines an actual "Mixolydian" or "Dorian" sound.

Your application of C Mixolydian seems to sit somewhere in between those two. Just from playing the chord progression through I certainly don't get an overall sense of C Mixolydian from it, which strikes modal usage number 2. And as I've already said there's no A-natural to be found, which strikes modal usage number 1.
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Martin Gifford
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by Martin Gifford » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:03 pm

stringtapper wrote:there's no evidence of an A-natural being in the piece...


Maybe the confusion here is that modes are generally applied to modern music in two ways: (1) jazz chord/scale theory where each chord has a corresponding mode that one can play over it, and (2) true modal music where the melodic phrasing outlines an actual "Mixolydian" or "Dorian" sound.

Your application of C Mixolydian seems to sit somewhere in between those two. Just from playing the chord progression through I certainly don't get an overall sense of C Mixolydian from it, which strikes modal usage number 2. And as I've already said there's no A-natural to be found, which strikes modal usage number 1.
You could say the mode is Mixolydian b6 if there's no A natural, but Ab instead. Then the Eb complicates it. So you could create a hybrid scale:

C D Eb E F G Ab Bb C.

I was making a suggestion for the OP along the lines of usage 1, which the OP seemed to be looking for. In the same way that a standard piece of music is said to be in X major or X minor, yet can have a key change in it, I suggested C mixolydian with a mode/key change in it.

If I began with those chords, I would start by thinking C mixolydian mood with a mode change. But C mixolydian b6 works just as well, but is less common. Hybrid scale would be last resort. Certainly wouldn't be thinking Cm. Anyway, as I said, it depends on the melody and bass notes that the OP is using.

EDIT: Actually, just playing through the chord progression again on guitar, it really sounds majorish and bright to me. it has three major chords, after all. So C mixolydian sounds the most natural choice to start with.

stringtapper
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by stringtapper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:39 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:I was making a suggestion for the OP along the lines of usage 1, which the OP seemed to be looking for. In the same way that a standard piece of music is said to be in X major or X minor, yet can have a key change in it, I suggested C mixolydian with a mode/key change in it.
He specifically asked what scale or key the entire progression was in, so closer to usage 2 I think. This is where the suggestion of using an overall C mind/three flat key signature came from. So now it's clear you're definitely looking at this in terms of chord/scale theory, which then makes it clear why you would take my "C minor/three flats" suggestion as "play a C minor scale over the C major chord." That's not what I was saying, and I hope that's clearer for you now.

Now let's do it the chord/scale way…
Martin Gifford wrote:If I began with those chords, I would start by thinking C mixolydian mood with a mode change.

EDIT: Actually, just playing through the chord progression again on guitar, it really sounds majorish and bright to me. it has three major chords, after all. So C mixolydian sounds the most natural choice to start with.
Now that I've had a chance to do a bit of melody accompaniment improv with it at the piano I'm even more against C Mixolydian… at least over the C major chord. For one it sounds super schmaltzy to my ears and rather lame. The other reason is that if we are going chord/scale on it then just because there's a Bb in two of the four chords doesn't mean we necessarily have to play a mode with a Bb in it over one of the chords that doesn't have a Bb!

In fact to my ear a plain ol' C major scale (Ionian) sounds great over that C major. C Lydian sounds pretty sweet too. In fact I'll split the difference with you, you can have your Bb and I can have my F# and we just use C Lydian b7 over the C major chord. Not bad eh? Not quite as schmaltzy with that whole tone feel.

However, I still can't help but dig that shift from B to Bb when using C Ionian and then G Dorian on the progression from C to Gm. Notice G Dorian is related to your C Mixolydian.

Then I would agree on Ab Lydian, but then you might be tempted to then use Bb Mixolydian on the Bb chord to fit with the mode we used over Ab, but for me, wanting to avoid the schmaltz factor I would just go straight Bb Ionian.

To my ear shifting the modes this way takes that push/pull feeling that is manifested in the C major chord's juxtaposition with the flat-laden chords and lets it play out between all of the chords.

So for chord/scaling it I'd go:

C Ionian – G Dorian – Ab Lydian – Bb Ionian

And for even weirder fun I would substitute Lydian b7 instead of Ionian on both the C and Bb major chords. :)
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Martin Gifford
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by Martin Gifford » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:37 pm

stringtapper wrote: So for chord/scaling it I'd go: C Ionian – G Dorian – Ab Lydian – Bb Ionian
Thanks for your views. But I bet OP does something closer to C mixolydian with a change at Ab, than C Ionian – G Dorian – Ab Lydian – Bb Ionian.

stringtapper
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by stringtapper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:35 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:
stringtapper wrote: So for chord/scaling it I'd go: C Ionian – G Dorian – Ab Lydian – Bb Ionian
Thanks for your views. But I bet OP does something closer to C mixolydian with a change at Ab, than C Ionian – G Dorian – Ab Lydian – Bb Ionian.
No need to make it a competition…

:|
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puzzlefactory
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by puzzlefactory » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:33 am

Personally I was educated by both theories. :)

Either way, the tracks almost finished. Going to lay down some vocals for it on Thursday.

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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by puzzlefactory » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:21 am

For anyone whose interested, here's the track I made with the chord progression. ;)

https://m.soundcloud.com/nix1984/mtma-radio-edit

Martin Gifford
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by Martin Gifford » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:55 am

puzzlefactory wrote:For anyone whose interested, here's the track I made with the chord progression. ;)

https://m.soundcloud.com/nix1984/mtma-radio-edit
Nice vibe. I like it. Note there's a vocal drop-out at 3:10.

puzzlefactory
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by puzzlefactory » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:37 am

Martin Gifford wrote:
puzzlefactory wrote:For anyone whose interested, here's the track I made with the chord progression. ;)

https://m.soundcloud.com/nix1984/mtma-radio-edit
Nice vibe. I like it. Note there's a vocal drop-out at 3:10.

It's a radio edit and theres a swear word there... ;)

siliconarc
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by siliconarc » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:04 pm

puzzlefactory wrote:
Martin Gifford wrote:
puzzlefactory wrote:For anyone whose interested, here's the track I made with the chord progression. ;)

https://m.soundcloud.com/nix1984/mtma-radio-edit
Nice vibe. I like it. Note there's a vocal drop-out at 3:10.

It's a radio edit and theres a swear word there... ;)
is "languidth" a swear word? 8)

jlgrimes
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Re: Question for any music theory heads out there, song key?

Post by jlgrimes » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:01 pm

puzzlefactory wrote:I've written a little chord progression that i really like but can't figure out what key it is in. The tonic chord is C major but the rest of the progression is in C minor scale. So what key would this be? What scale is it following?

I think it comes down more to the main melody than the chord progression.


If most of the song is in C major I would just say C major, or if most is in C minor, I would say that.

It depends though. Alot of blues/rock songs will use Major chords (really dominant 7th chords) against a minor pentatonic or blues melody so if your song is doing that I would consider the key more C minor than major.


It is also nothing wrong with changing the key of the song in the areas when appropriate. Alot of artist use alot of key modulations (Stevie Wonder comes to mind).

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