I finally got a sensible response from Ableton sales confirming that the educational price is 249 euros (dollars) - a great price indeed for a first time buyer.
I was wondering however, if I had bought v1.00 and then purchased all the upgrades to and including Live 5 how much I might have spent in total.
I guess it would add up to quite a lot.
I began ask myself a question : is software expensive ?
I suppose if I was a pro DJ making loads of money from Live then it would be cheap, on the other hand, if I was a casual user that used the software periodically then it would be expensive.
Really, when you buy into Live or any software that is being developed, you are supporting that development which obviously costs quite a lot of money.
When you buy hardware, however, you might only update every three years for example.
It's an interesting question and I might discuss with my students next term (I teach electronics and computing for my sins).
Cheers.
Is software expensive ?
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Riff Valley
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 10:03 am
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anonymouse
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:33 am
software IS expensive.
Music software in partiular is bleeding many people of their hardearned cash and it is not really offering them any tools they can profit from.
Slowly everyone realises they have spent too much on hosts, plugins, audio editors, sample CDs etc. The ones they like, they will continue to upgrade - at significant cost. But for other apps they have lukewarm interest in, they will drift into the crackware world once reality hits them and they realise they have been a sucker. It's a magpie syndrome - I must have the latest shiniest tool on the market.
Sometimes when you look at the Ableton forum it looks like a social support group for lonely people with way to much time on their hands. Bizarre OTs can be interesting for many, but there seems to be a new culture developing for some that involves posting threads about "Oh, I did this the other day".
It all depends on what motivates you. If you are creating meaningful music that might last for a few decades in the minds of the masses, Ableton Live is absolutely irrelevant. That is the world of musicians, composers and originiality. Choice of software does not matter, there is no superior system. A tascam casette 4 track and a brain is all that is required.
If you want a mild caffeine-like buzz from blending some other person's music together with autowarp, then you have found your Holy Grail.
A small handful of people use Live like a true instrument. And they do it well. I am sure it disappoints the Abe developers that there has not been more than a tiny clutch of people with the capability to manipulate Live in a performance situation and improvise great flowing free music. But money is money.
At the end of the day, my point is, software is horrifically expensive.
If you've spent more than Jimi Hendrix spent on his first guitar you're a fucking idiot to keep browsing KVR and sucking up every sad VST you are told to buy.
Read the small print. You have no talent.
If you totally disagree, and have had some progress with your music - because you actually manage to make some ... then you may be in a different category.
But I have yet to hear a single posted tune on this forum with any "wow factor" beyond What effect if that guy using?
Back to Basics. It is a hard slog. But I highly recommend a software purchasing freeze for 12 months. Recognise the ridiculously powerful stuff you already have on your putah, or can get for free - and go use it.
There is a growing nausea with the cloyng atmosphere on this forum of people who aren't taking independent steps and are just wetting themselves with the new Live 5 release.
What REALLY does Live 5 offer you that transforms your potential as an artist?
(no criticism of Live 5 - but just think about what you are trying to do and how it will help you in making music, and I am coming from a bias of compositional originality rather than a live remix perspective)
Music software in partiular is bleeding many people of their hardearned cash and it is not really offering them any tools they can profit from.
Slowly everyone realises they have spent too much on hosts, plugins, audio editors, sample CDs etc. The ones they like, they will continue to upgrade - at significant cost. But for other apps they have lukewarm interest in, they will drift into the crackware world once reality hits them and they realise they have been a sucker. It's a magpie syndrome - I must have the latest shiniest tool on the market.
Sometimes when you look at the Ableton forum it looks like a social support group for lonely people with way to much time on their hands. Bizarre OTs can be interesting for many, but there seems to be a new culture developing for some that involves posting threads about "Oh, I did this the other day".
It all depends on what motivates you. If you are creating meaningful music that might last for a few decades in the minds of the masses, Ableton Live is absolutely irrelevant. That is the world of musicians, composers and originiality. Choice of software does not matter, there is no superior system. A tascam casette 4 track and a brain is all that is required.
If you want a mild caffeine-like buzz from blending some other person's music together with autowarp, then you have found your Holy Grail.
A small handful of people use Live like a true instrument. And they do it well. I am sure it disappoints the Abe developers that there has not been more than a tiny clutch of people with the capability to manipulate Live in a performance situation and improvise great flowing free music. But money is money.
At the end of the day, my point is, software is horrifically expensive.
If you've spent more than Jimi Hendrix spent on his first guitar you're a fucking idiot to keep browsing KVR and sucking up every sad VST you are told to buy.
Read the small print. You have no talent.
If you totally disagree, and have had some progress with your music - because you actually manage to make some ... then you may be in a different category.
But I have yet to hear a single posted tune on this forum with any "wow factor" beyond What effect if that guy using?
Back to Basics. It is a hard slog. But I highly recommend a software purchasing freeze for 12 months. Recognise the ridiculously powerful stuff you already have on your putah, or can get for free - and go use it.
There is a growing nausea with the cloyng atmosphere on this forum of people who aren't taking independent steps and are just wetting themselves with the new Live 5 release.
What REALLY does Live 5 offer you that transforms your potential as an artist?
(no criticism of Live 5 - but just think about what you are trying to do and how it will help you in making music, and I am coming from a bias of compositional originality rather than a live remix perspective)
anonymouse,anonymouse wrote:
Read the small print. You have no talent.
If you totally disagree, and have had some progress with your music - because you actually manage to make some ... then you may be in a different category.
But I have yet to hear a single posted tune on this forum with any "wow factor" beyond What effect if that guy using?
Back to Basics. It is a hard slog. But I highly recommend a software purchasing freeze for 12 months. Recognise the ridiculously powerful stuff you already have on your putah, or can get for free - and go use it.
There is a growing nausea with the cloyng atmosphere on this forum of people who aren't taking independent steps and are just wetting themselves with the new Live 5 release.
What REALLY does Live 5 offer you that transforms your potential as an artist?
(no criticism of Live 5 - but just think about what you are trying to do and how it will help you in making music, and I am coming from a bias of compositional originality rather than a live remix perspective)
I'm still on the fence with this issue but I totally agree with you about the music creation part. Well said, my friend.
Dual 2.5gig G5 with 2.5g/ram, DP 4.6, Live 6, Kontakt, Battery, Guitar Rig, EWQLSO Gold, Ivory, Pluggo, Waves, Tritone Digital, PSP, tons of free plug-ins, DFHS, BFD, Event ASP8's, Trigger Finger.....and a bunch of other shite.
It sounds like an autobiography to meanonymouse wrote:software IS expensive.
Music software in partiular is bleeding many people of their hardearned cash and it is not really offering them any tools they can profit from.
Slowly everyone realises they have spent too much on hosts, plugins, audio editors, sample CDs etc. The ones they like, they will continue to upgrade - at significant cost. But for other apps they have lukewarm interest in, they will drift into the crackware world once reality hits them and they realise they have been a sucker. It's a magpie syndrome - I must have the latest shiniest tool on the market.
Sometimes when you look at the Ableton forum it looks like a social support group for lonely people with way to much time on their hands. Bizarre OTs can be interesting for many, but there seems to be a new culture developing for some that involves posting threads about "Oh, I did this the other day".
It all depends on what motivates you. If you are creating meaningful music that might last for a few decades in the minds of the masses, Ableton Live is absolutely irrelevant. That is the world of musicians, composers and originiality. Choice of software does not matter, there is no superior system. A tascam casette 4 track and a brain is all that is required.
If you want a mild caffeine-like buzz from blending some other person's music together with autowarp, then you have found your Holy Grail.
A small handful of people use Live like a true instrument. And they do it well. I am sure it disappoints the Abe developers that there has not been more than a tiny clutch of people with the capability to manipulate Live in a performance situation and improvise great flowing free music. But money is money.
At the end of the day, my point is, software is horrifically expensive.
If you've spent more than Jimi Hendrix spent on his first guitar you're a fucking idiot to keep browsing KVR and sucking up every sad VST you are told to buy.
Read the small print. You have no talent.
If you totally disagree, and have had some progress with your music - because you actually manage to make some ... then you may be in a different category.
But I have yet to hear a single posted tune on this forum with any "wow factor" beyond What effect if that guy using?
Back to Basics. It is a hard slog. But I highly recommend a software purchasing freeze for 12 months. Recognise the ridiculously powerful stuff you already have on your putah, or can get for free - and go use it.
There is a growing nausea with the cloyng atmosphere on this forum of people who aren't taking independent steps and are just wetting themselves with the new Live 5 release.
What REALLY does Live 5 offer you that transforms your potential as an artist?
(no criticism of Live 5 - but just think about what you are trying to do and how it will help you in making music, and I am coming from a bias of compositional originality rather than a live remix perspective)
I agree to a very large extent too. Software, whilst giving us things which we could never to with hardware is :
1) in a perpetual upgrade cycle
2) ALWAYS has bugs, forcing us to stay in 1)
3) ALWAYS means more CPU consumption, forcing us back into 1) for our computer.
4) has lousy, lousy resale value, if any.
5) allowing people who shouldn't be making music to think they can make music, albeit badly.
6) providing too much focus on the computer display, which causes people to (subconciously perhaps) create music and sounds based on looks rather than the sounds.
The best music I ever wrote, and the most productive I ever was, was with Dr T's KCS on an Amiga with a BassStation, an S-760 sampler, Korg synth and a boss drum box.
I sat down with my new Virus last night, my LCD off and just banged out notes, riffs, sounds with my eyes shut. Software can never compete with that experience...
1) in a perpetual upgrade cycle
2) ALWAYS has bugs, forcing us to stay in 1)
3) ALWAYS means more CPU consumption, forcing us back into 1) for our computer.
4) has lousy, lousy resale value, if any.
5) allowing people who shouldn't be making music to think they can make music, albeit badly.
6) providing too much focus on the computer display, which causes people to (subconciously perhaps) create music and sounds based on looks rather than the sounds.
The best music I ever wrote, and the most productive I ever was, was with Dr T's KCS on an Amiga with a BassStation, an S-760 sampler, Korg synth and a boss drum box.
I sat down with my new Virus last night, my LCD off and just banged out notes, riffs, sounds with my eyes shut. Software can never compete with that experience...
Yeah, but think of this: one mid-range synth can cost you the same as Live and a decent computer. Plus you can use the computer for more than just music.Riff Valley wrote:Good point braj, don't forget that Live needs very expensive hardware to run on !
Can I just point out that I am not actually saying Live is expensive, merely posing a question to stimulate debate.
cheers
I used to spend lots on hardware and just getting decent cables and a decent mixer with 16 channels, 4 aux sends, etc can cost you $1000 easily. How much is a reverb? A delay? Compressor? A sampler? A drum machine? A DAT deck to record into? Etc, etc, etc. Hardware is really expensive. Maintaining it, transporting it, replacing it when things get fried.
If you've never gone the hardware route, I guess software can seem expensive though.
i gladly pay 150€ every year if it helps keeping a company like ableton alive and developing. hopefully they are making some profit with it too... they are working 24/7 to make it a professional product...
just getting angry about companies with buggy software & lousy support...
there are other things I spend more money on that are pretty useless compared to good music software...
just getting angry about companies with buggy software & lousy support...
there are other things I spend more money on that are pretty useless compared to good music software...
anonymouse I agree with you whole heartedly on the lack of logic that some of us demonstrate by always wanting the new "thing" and the analogy about the Magpie is very appropriate. We (like the "cat" on Red Dwarf) like shiny things. I am guilty of it myself.
However I do take issue with some of the statements that were made.
But I have yet to hear a single posted tune on this forum with any "wow factor" beyond What effect if that guy using?
This is a personal opinion. Some of the stuff does not work for me as well but we all have different tastes. I have heard some things that are technically very proficient. I have also heard artists on this site where you can hear their personal improvements song by song. It's all a learning experience my friend.
I also have to ask what the goal is of making music in the first place? For some it's the "chicks", for some it's technical masterbation, for others it's akin to playing darts or making macrame pot holders, for others it is to become a superstar hot performer/dj, for others it could be a form or meditation. I hope you see what I am getting at. It doesn't always have to be the most perfectly and aesthetically pleasing piece of sound out there to be important.
I myself make music because I have to, it's something inside me and the muse demands it. I may not be the best at what I do but I walk away from my stuff pretty satisfied or at least knowing that I am doing what I love.
And yes it is waaay to expensive. I agree. Although I have to say that most people spend a hell of a lot on their hobbies. I see trucks go by my house every day loaded with up to 8 quad runners. These motorcycles serve little other purpose than taking a loud drunk from one sandpile to the next. But they love it sooo they are willing to spend $7000 a pop for them. Hell I paraglide and there is no logic in me spending money on that except that sitting five thousand feet in the air listening to music on my headphones is church to me. I have seen how much people spend on bird watching. Now tell me how you know someone is the best birdwatcher?
I also don't get the off topic comment. I may be misunderstanding you but in my experience this is nothing new and is somewhat necessary. That is what a community is about. The Ableton forum is a community after all. Sure knowing about cat milk or peoples love or hate for Sasha or whether boobs or butts are better is irrelevant and sometimes absurd. I look forward to most of them. Why? Because it is people who have similar interests and can appreciate humor, absurdity, or a different approach to thinking.
I love the way people think differently I even appreciate some of the more annoying posts or sometimes even computo's potty mouth replies.
Off topic is a way to vent and mentally stretch. There must be some reason why the off topic posts get the most views. It shows that there are living breathing people who are on the forum, some of them I could even see myself hanging out with.
Forums that are overly pedantic suck. I can go to the Linux forum if I want that.
Anyway not to beat a dead horse but there are so many different takes on music because everybody hears things differently. It's like Robert Pirsig said in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". "Quality—you know what it is, yet you don’t know what it is" We know what quality is to us but there is no set definition of what quality is. It's relative.
Oh and Live 5's minimizing tracks and loop points are going to help me write the best music ever!
However I do take issue with some of the statements that were made.
But I have yet to hear a single posted tune on this forum with any "wow factor" beyond What effect if that guy using?
This is a personal opinion. Some of the stuff does not work for me as well but we all have different tastes. I have heard some things that are technically very proficient. I have also heard artists on this site where you can hear their personal improvements song by song. It's all a learning experience my friend.
I also have to ask what the goal is of making music in the first place? For some it's the "chicks", for some it's technical masterbation, for others it's akin to playing darts or making macrame pot holders, for others it is to become a superstar hot performer/dj, for others it could be a form or meditation. I hope you see what I am getting at. It doesn't always have to be the most perfectly and aesthetically pleasing piece of sound out there to be important.
I myself make music because I have to, it's something inside me and the muse demands it. I may not be the best at what I do but I walk away from my stuff pretty satisfied or at least knowing that I am doing what I love.
And yes it is waaay to expensive. I agree. Although I have to say that most people spend a hell of a lot on their hobbies. I see trucks go by my house every day loaded with up to 8 quad runners. These motorcycles serve little other purpose than taking a loud drunk from one sandpile to the next. But they love it sooo they are willing to spend $7000 a pop for them. Hell I paraglide and there is no logic in me spending money on that except that sitting five thousand feet in the air listening to music on my headphones is church to me. I have seen how much people spend on bird watching. Now tell me how you know someone is the best birdwatcher?
I also don't get the off topic comment. I may be misunderstanding you but in my experience this is nothing new and is somewhat necessary. That is what a community is about. The Ableton forum is a community after all. Sure knowing about cat milk or peoples love or hate for Sasha or whether boobs or butts are better is irrelevant and sometimes absurd. I look forward to most of them. Why? Because it is people who have similar interests and can appreciate humor, absurdity, or a different approach to thinking.
I love the way people think differently I even appreciate some of the more annoying posts or sometimes even computo's potty mouth replies.
Off topic is a way to vent and mentally stretch. There must be some reason why the off topic posts get the most views. It shows that there are living breathing people who are on the forum, some of them I could even see myself hanging out with. Forums that are overly pedantic suck. I can go to the Linux forum if I want that.
Anyway not to beat a dead horse but there are so many different takes on music because everybody hears things differently. It's like Robert Pirsig said in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". "Quality—you know what it is, yet you don’t know what it is" We know what quality is to us but there is no set definition of what quality is. It's relative.
Oh and Live 5's minimizing tracks and loop points are going to help me write the best music ever!
3ghz Pentium 4 (Prescott), XP Sp2, 1gig Ram, Dual Monitor with Matrox Millenium, MOTU Traveler, Event EZ8 Adat card. Also IBM THinkpad t40 1.6 1 gig ram
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incinereight
- Posts: 57
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- Contact:
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bytheriver
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:53 pm
I've download music from this forum, from Qchapter and one or two others that I cant recall offhand, which is always in my playlist.
Its not only great music, but I find it somehow more personal in a way, its not some band or artist dressed to sell records, its just a person and in most cases a few bits of kit and a few good ideas.
I've never finished a full record, which is pretty shocking since i'm sat next to a (waiting to be mended after this morning) darkstar XP2 synth, a Kawai K4 synth, a PCR30 controler, an MC307 groovebox and my vestax DJing mixer and headphones, not to mention live4.1 and reason on my laptop.
But I enjoy throwing ideas around, and I learn from it, I'm a lot closer to finishing something I like now than I was 4 months ago.
Given the choice of spending money on production gear and being creative in my spare time, or buying expensive clothes and a big car and watching whatevers on TV in my spare time, I think the first wins hands down.
Its not only great music, but I find it somehow more personal in a way, its not some band or artist dressed to sell records, its just a person and in most cases a few bits of kit and a few good ideas.
I've never finished a full record, which is pretty shocking since i'm sat next to a (waiting to be mended after this morning) darkstar XP2 synth, a Kawai K4 synth, a PCR30 controler, an MC307 groovebox and my vestax DJing mixer and headphones, not to mention live4.1 and reason on my laptop.
But I enjoy throwing ideas around, and I learn from it, I'm a lot closer to finishing something I like now than I was 4 months ago.
Given the choice of spending money on production gear and being creative in my spare time, or buying expensive clothes and a big car and watching whatevers on TV in my spare time, I think the first wins hands down.
Ableton Live is the reason I enjoy making music. When I'm using other DAW's, I get so turned off. I am a web-designer so live's interface and complexity is really what got me. It's funny, I usually make everything in live, I've yet to "dj" with it or cut my own clips and warp. Its hard for me to get even a song down, but Live is just awesome. I usually bust out my midi keyboard and set impluse up, then get in the groove. I don't know how this will fit in this thread, but without the forum I'd be lost. I check it when I have some free-time, to get some insight. I think the forum also sold me on Live, I feel real "support" in my creativity, which is a great thing. Again, I don't really know how this fits in this thread, but reading everyone else's made me want to say something.
oh yeah, software is expensive, but I take advantage of demos and recommendations before I put my money down. This hobby is expensive, but its all about finding the right tools which allows you to have fun and get into it as opposed to the top-of-the-line complicated stuff which you can't seem to get into.
oh yeah, software is expensive, but I take advantage of demos and recommendations before I put my money down. This hobby is expensive, but its all about finding the right tools which allows you to have fun and get into it as opposed to the top-of-the-line complicated stuff which you can't seem to get into.
Powerbook Ti 1ghz, Evo MK-425C, Live 4 baby, and Evo X-Session, oh yeah.. and this thing called a Dual 2ghz G5. 