Melodies & Chords, in which order ?

[Stromkraft]

I did not say that melodies could not be created in isolation; I said that it was difficult to do so. Because if you do, and you come back and add chords later, you will probably find that the two won't work as well together as they would have worked if you had thought about the chords at the time you created the melody.

??? Chords are subservient to the melody. You pick the chords that fit the melody, how can that "not work well together"?

Not necessarily. The melody can be just a sideshow to the main theme which could be the harmony of the chords in use that are telling the main story.
All rules are made to be broken anyway.

[stringtapper]

Not necessarily. The melody can be just a sideshow to the main theme which could be the harmony of the chords in use that are telling the main story.
All rules are made to be broken anyway.

Well, sure, it could be conceptually. As in that could be your concept behind the piece when composing.

But the very nature of what a melody is means that it is bound to sound like a primary point of focus to a listener when occurring simultaneously with harmony. That's more an issue of cognition than composition.

Then of course you have counterpoint which is at least two melodies occurring simultaneously that generate harmony through their vertical convergences.

[Stromkraft]

the very nature of what a melody is means that it is bound to sound like a primary point of focus to a listener when occurring simultaneously with harmony. That's more an issue of cognition than composition.

I agree for the most part, but how the piece is likely to be perceived is also dependent on the sounds themselves as well as the range and level they play back at. You can make chord progressions very strong and center stage where the melody appear almost like an afterthought. So it's about presentation and arranging as well.

I'm currently very traditional with melodies and harmony, but once I had a very talented drummer that later went on to become an electronic noise music composer and his views on composition were not bound by tradition at all, even as he seemed to be a master of these. There are no rules that cannot be broken as I see it, but breaking those rules may not result in great music. Which rules or practices to adopt and which to ignore is up to every individual composer.

[NoSonic822]

don't get lost in this dichotomy of chords vs melody....theyre all just tones...in groups or not...monophonic or polyphonic.....it's all tones....and intervals. a chord can be just two notes....it's the absence of that 3rd note that can create intensity

[yur2die4]

I'd maybe use the word ambiguity instead of intensity. But even then, things can become clear over time as more notes are played over time.

I mean, sometimes the presence of a third can create intensity there's a pretty famous movement in a symphony which is an example.

I guess I wouldn't really get too caught up in it. The OP is probably trying to decide what his next post on chords will be, and trying to think of an enthusiastic way to say he doesn't have any time to play around this time.

[NoSonic822]

I'd

I mean, sometimes the presence of a third can create intensity there's a pretty famous movement in a symphony which is an example.

yes the 3rd is there but not played on an instrument...but singing.....like iom talking about songwriting....you dont always have to play triads every time you write a song....sometimes we dont need that tone there. it creates tension and ambniguity....

[stringtapper]

...you dont always have to play triads every time you write a song....sometimes we dont need that tone there. it creates tension and ambniguity....

Well the technical reason that the 5th of a major or minor triad can be omitted is because in just about any sound more complex than a sine wave the 5th is going to be present as the second overtone of the root of the chord.

[NoSonic822]

...you dont always have to play triads every time you write a song....sometimes we dont need that tone there. it creates tension and ambniguity....

Well the technical reason that the 5th of a major or minor triad can be omitted is because in just about any sound more complex than a sine wave the 5th is going to be present as the second overtone of the root of the chord.

i'm talking about the second note of a triad...like the E of the C chord

in a certain complex waveform like saw wave...the major 3rd (interval) wouold be the 5th, 10th or 20th harmonic.
minor 3rd would be 19th harmonic

but even though those are present in most complex waveforms....they are not fundamental tones.....there is only one fundamental tone...in a tone (of a triad chord that youre playing on a keyboard)....whether its a saw wave (tone).. or triangle wave (tone)...

so even though there is technically a 5th interval (3rd, 6th, 12th 24th harmonic)(2nd 5th 11th and 23rd overtone).....what you hear is the fundamental...and that is what matters

i think it s important to not confuse the word overtone...when we talk about chords.... overtones are part of the harmonic series..and are basically side effects of playing the notes (of a chord or just one note whatever)...the non-root notes of a chord...are not overtones...they are inttervals right?

[stringtapper]

...you dont always have to play triads every time you write a song....sometimes we dont need that tone there. it creates tension and ambniguity....

Well the technical reason that the 5th of a major or minor triad can be omitted is because in just about any sound more complex than a sine wave the 5th is going to be present as the second overtone of the root of the chord.

i'm talking about the second note of a triad...like the E of the C chord

in a certain complex waveform like saw wave...the major 3rd (interval) wouold be the 5th, 10th or 20th harmonic.
minor 3rd would be 19th harmonic

but even though those are present in most complex waveforms....they are not fundamental tones.....there is only one fundamental tone...in a tone (of a triad chord that youre playing on a keyboard)....whether its a saw wave (tone).. or triangle wave (tone)...

so even though there is technically a 5th interval (3rd, 6th, 12th 24th harmonic)(2nd 5th 11th and 23rd overtone).....what you hear is the fundamental...and that is what matters

i think it s important to not confuse the word overtone...when we talk about chords.... overtones are part of the harmonic series..and are basically side effects of playing the notes (of a chord or just one note whatever)...the non-root notes of a chord...are not overtones...they are inttervals right?

No one ever said that overtones are chord tones. What I said is that the second overtone, generally being one of the strongest in terms of amplitude, is usually going to be heard above the fundamental. Not as strongly as if the note were played as a chord tone (another fundamental), but still strong and certainly stronger than the fourth overtone (which is the major 3rd).

And you do hear these overtones, mostly they contribute to our sense of timbre through something called spectral fusion, but the lower overtones, especially the 1st (octave) and 2nd (5th), can certainly be sensed by the ear.

This has been known for a long time and has been exploited by composers and it's why the 5th is often viewed as "expendable" for voicing major and minor triads.

Let me know if there's anything else you don't understand and I can try to explain it.

[NoSonic822]

CDA66115 CD 1968, recorded 1986
Stimmung literally means ‘tuning’ or ‘being in tune’ (Stimme = voice). Stockhausen's 1968 composition for six singers had a decisive impact on spectral composers because of its pioneering use of vocal harmonics. Each tone is the ‘fundamental’ for a series of overtones, which are contained within it. These harmnoics aren't always audible, but if the singer's tongue and lip positions are gradually altered, they can be revealed. Stockhausen's young baby needed to sleep during the day, so he "began humming, did not sing loudly anymore, began to listen to my vibrating skull… trying out everything myself by humming the overtone melodies. Nothing oriental, nothing philosophical…" Stockhausen used each overtone as the fundamental of a further harmonic series. He had recently visited Aztec ruins in Mexico, and half of the piece's 51 sections involve rhythmic ph

interesting stuff. what don't I understand string rapper? expand. please. we're all ears.

[ark]

Not necessarily. The melody can be just a sideshow to the main theme which could be the harmony of the chords in use that are telling the main story.
All rules are made to be broken anyway.

Well, sure, it could be conceptually. As in that could be your concept behind the piece when composing.

Pretty much all of jazz is based on the idea of starting with a chord progression and inventing new melodies to fit it.

[stringtapper]

what don't I understand string rapper? expand. please. we're all ears.

You don't understand that the lowest overtones are usually the strongest in terms of amplitude and can often be heard very clearly, and that historically this phenomenon allowed for the omission of the 5th from a major or minor triad.

Which is weird that you don't understand that since I've written it twice already in this thread.

Or is it English that you don't understand?*


*serious question

[NoSonic822]

you're talking nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. lmao u seem to have the desire to attempt to 1up people who u feel inferior to on this forum. and resort to completely outlandish statements to prove your nonexistent points. u have issues dude. lol. and u offer very little value to any musical discussion.

[stringtapper]

you're talking nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. lmao u seem to have the desire to attempt to 1up people who u feel inferior to on this forum. and resort to completely outlandish statements to prove your nonexistent points. u have issues dude. lol. and u offer very little value to any musical discussion.

If you're talking about what I'm saying about the physical reasons for the 5th often being omitted, then no, it is absolutely not nonsense. It's very real.

Hell, even the Wiki page on the perfect fifth talks about it:

However, since many instruments contain a perfect fifth as an overtone, it is not unusual to omit the fifth of a chord (especially in root position).

Seriously though, wallow in ignorance all you want. Make personal attacks on me and try to psychoanalyze me all you want. But the facts are on my side about the perfect 5th subject.

[NoSonic822]

LOL at Lullo wallow in ignorance. all u care about is nut picking other people to try and exert some sort of intellectual superiority that has no real value or purpose in the greater scheme. the only purpose is to make yourself feel like u "win". ur easy to psychoanalze bc u r like 99% of everyone else: u r addicted to getting in these little meaningless trivial online battles with people. it gives u that little endorphin shot to "think" that u r arguing or proving some point...however trivial or nebulous it may actually be

this is typical behaviour in the 21century but also emblematic of a person who is lacking drive and the will to take real action in the real world . it's like a loop, a feedback loop. of looking to feed that physical chemical need in the brain. my advice to u is to find what really lights your tree. do that thing that is missing in yur real life . then you won't have this petty addictive behaviour online