Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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chloe harris
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Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:46 am

I'm having trouble getting Ableton Live to record midi clock data from my Doepfer dark time sequencer. I want to to record 4 tracks of audio from 2 synths and the midi clock data from the sequencer. Then, perhaps 2 days later, use the midi clock data I recorded to drive the sequencer or an arpegiattor on a synth and record an extra 4 tracks of audio alongside the ones I already have.

Right now I have the midi out of the sequencer going to a midi splitter and then to both the synths and an Audiofire 12. If I set Live to "Input/Track" then it will record midi notes as they come in from the sequencer. Great.

If I then send this out to a synth or sequencer it will send the note values. I don't want this. I just want the tempo it was recorded at to be sent so that I can record extra tracks of audio onto the audio tracks I already recorded in the first session.

If I turn "track" off and just have "sync" on then Live does not see the audiofire at all and will not record anything I send it.

If I have both "track" and "sync" on then it will receive/record the notes and then send the information that starts my sequencer but the tempo is determined by Live's master clock, not the tempo that I recorded in the earlier session.

Is there something special I have to do to get Live to only record the tempo of my sequencer clock and then only send that data back to it at a later date?

(I understand that I could use Live's master clock to drive my sequencer in the first session, but I don't want to do that).

Thanks!
:oops:

chloe harris
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:56 am

In summary: I can only send midi clock out at the internal ableton speed (120 or tap). I can't send midi clock out at the same tempo as the original recording.

chloe harris
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:27 am

I have been told...

"Basically you cannot record MIDI clock to a MIDI track in Live. The only events you can record are Notes, Aftertouch, Pitch Bend, and Control Changes. MIDI clock are bytes that will stripped off the data stream at the input."

It seems slightly strange to me that Live can read midi clock data (in order to sync) but cannot record it. Will pro-tools do this?

I just want my computer to be a multitrack recorder and I need the midi clock to be able to overdub.

peeddrroo
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by peeddrroo » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:42 am

You can record tempo changes if you record in Arrangement view (Session won't you let do this).
But why don't you let Live act as the master for your MIDI clock, and record the changes within it?
This way, you can always come back to edit it, and you won't need to record any incoming MIDI clock message.

chloe harris
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:15 am

Thanks for the help. I understand using Live as the master clock would make things easier, but it's not really how I work. I tend to record for several hours at a time and then go back and see what parts I like. I tend to change the tempo as I'm going using the knob on the sequencer, and if the part I like has tempo changes then so be it. I'm not making rigid dance music, its a bit more abstract and free than that, so slowing down and speeding up is sometimes part of the music. Its hard to grab the mouse and keyboard and enter a bpm value for the speed I want to go at for the next few minutes.

I'll try messing around with arrangement view tomorrow to see if it makes any difference, thanks.

timday
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by timday » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:19 pm

Can you sync the input (instead of the output) from the sequencer? Then Ableton might be able to record your tempo changes on the master track. Don't know how that works from a dark time but I know it will work for e.g. Novation Impulses which runs a MIDI clock for the arpeggiator so I imagine it would be similar.

Just don't sync the input and output at the same time or it'll go crazy.

Stromkraft
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:52 pm

chloe harris wrote:
If I then send this out to a synth or sequencer it will send the note values. I don't want this. I just want the tempo it was recorded at to be sent so that I can record extra tracks of audio onto the audio tracks I already recorded in the first session.

If I turn "track" off and just have "sync" on then Live does not see the audiofire at all and will not record anything I send it.

If I have both "track" and "sync" on then it will receive/record the notes and then send the information that starts my sequencer but the tempo is determined by Live's master clock, not the tempo that I recorded in the earlier session.

Is there something special I have to do to get Live to only record the tempo of my sequencer clock and then only send that data back to it at a later date?
Have you verified you have actually recorded MIDI clock data? I'm not sure this is what Live uses for its internal tempo, but if it can do that this needs to go into the tempo automation of the master track.
Make some music!

chloe harris
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:05 pm

No - according to someone who worked on Live the midiclock data is not recorded, and that's in fact the issue.

yur2die4
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:35 pm

It is essentially a kind of conversion.

Live receives midi clock data but cannot record actual 'midi clock data'. But it does record tempo into the arrangement view. In session view it would make no sense to record long sessions with midi clock. Session is meant to have tempo controlled at any time.

If Live recorded tempo changes in session view, then it can play back with tempo changes intact. When it plays back with tempo changes, the midi clock out will be sending its data based on Live's tempo changes (which were based on the initial midi clock input).

I think I would try a small test recording to see if this can work out. Live would have to be a slave to the midi clock.

On the other hand, if the midi clock data has very dramatic changes or abrupt interruptions, then I would see why you'd want to explicitly record midi clock only. In that case, you might need some much deeper problem solving tools (Max-related or midi converter. Not even sure if there are options in those for midi clock)

102455
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by 102455 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:38 pm

MIDI clock is not SMPTE.

SMPTE time code has been around for decades and is used by the film industry. It crossed over into studio use, for keeping (DIN) MIDI equipment in sync with tape.

The SMPTE was recorded to the tape, which was them played back and used to keep a sequencer in sync to the tape.

MIDI clock doesn't work that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_beat_clock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode

chloe harris
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:00 pm

yur2die4 wrote:It is essentially a kind of conversion.

Live receives midi clock data but cannot record actual 'midi clock data'. But it does record tempo into the arrangement view. In session view it would make no sense to record long sessions with midi clock. Session is meant to have tempo controlled at any time.

If Live recorded tempo changes in session view, then it can play back with tempo changes intact. When it plays back with tempo changes, the midi clock out will be sending its data based on Live's tempo changes (which were based on the initial midi clock input).

I think I would try a small test recording to see if this can work out. Live would have to be a slave to the midi clock.

On the other hand, if the midi clock data has very dramatic changes or abrupt interruptions, then I would see why you'd want to explicitly record midi clock only. In that case, you might need some much deeper problem solving tools (Max-related or midi converter. Not even sure if there are options in those for midi clock)
All my tests yesterday were in session view, so I'm going to try arrangement today and see if that helps. Thanks.

chloe harris
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by chloe harris » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:03 pm

Got it working exactly as I need by recording the CLK OUT of my sequencer and then sending it back to CLK IN when required.

Stromkraft
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Re: Recording (and then sending) midi clock with Ableton

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:45 am

chloe harris wrote:Got it working exactly as I need by recording the CLK OUT of my sequencer and then sending it back to CLK IN when required.
Damn you're old school aren't you? :mrgreen:
Make some music!

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