live 5 + operator upgrade offer - should there be one?

[Machinesworking]

I agree that reaktor rocks. But absynth is nothing more then 3 layered synths with effects. (to me)
If we could save groups + settings in Live, You could create even sweeter sounds.

I dunno man, the basic sound of Absynth is pretty different than any synth I have, and I have a ton of synths...... I can mimic the sound of most synths with another of similar type, but Absynth has sounds that simply can't be mimicked by other synths. Even the FX section has a certain sound. Worst part of Absynth is it's lack of automatable parameters, but it still ends up in half my songs.

I agree about Automat, for bread and butter sounds, you really can't beat the almost zero CPU hit! of Automat. I'm actually looking forward to the day when stiwi releases a commercial product so I can pay him a bit for his services.

the other thing is you're talking about using FX with Operator to get it to compete with Absynth or FM7, so then, how would Operator compete with either when they are given this advantage?

[Machinesworking]

Just for fun, I once got 22 instances of Automat going on my 800mhz powerbook!

[hoffman2k]

the other thing is you're talking about using FX with Operator to get it to compete with Absynth or FM7, so then, how would Operator compete with either when they are given this advantage?

Because you can acces all the parameters in the operator
Automating the phase can do wonders for your sound.

I think Stiwi is MIA. It's been a while since he popped by with an update.
You gotta love that guy. I heard he wont charge for the synth, because he doesn't want to write a manual.
Be sure to expect some Liveclips for automat soon

[hoffman2k]

Just for fun, I once got 22 instances of Automat going on my 800mhz powerbook!

The way i get around the cpu hits with the operator (or other synths) is with follow actions.
For example. An operator wont consume any cpu when it isn't running.
So i take about 50% maximum for a track. And let it build down to something like 25% before i trigger another scene.

That way i cant have any dropouts.

[mokomo]

So if I go to my favourite clothing store where I'm a loyal shopper and buy a $120 pair of jeans.

3 weeks later the store is selling 2 for the price of one in a "Sale Special", does that mean I should now be able to go in and get 3 pairs for the price of two because I already puchased 1 pair @ $121 or that I should therefore be entitled to a 50% on any one of my next purchases?

You get the general gist. The large chain stores in most countries I've been to have customer "loyalty cards". The more you spend, the greater the discount on future purchases. Not exactly what I would call convoluted logic.

My original point is - discounting Operator is unnecessary and not too cool for those users who paid a steep price for it. It wouldn't bode well for fast sales if Ableton are planning on future optional plug-ins.

[Tarekith]

Absynth absolutely blows Operator out of the water in all respects, there is NO comparison, ZERO! The only synths comparable for uniqueness of sounds are Zebra, Sculpture, and Reactor.

I agree, spent $30 more than I would have on Operator to get Absynth 3 when it was released. It had come down to those two synths, and doller for doller Absynth has way more features (granular sampling? Audio input?) than Operator. But of course, that's only my opinion.

In Operator's defense, the close integration with the host is a nice bonus, as is not ever having to deal with NI's "tech support", which is a joke.

[Machinesworking]

I agree that reaktor rocks. But absynth is nothing more then 3 layered synths with effects. (to me)
If we could save groups + settings in Live, You could create even sweeter sounds.

the other thing is you're talking about using FX with Operator to get it to compete with Absynth or FM7, so then, how would Operator compete with either when they are given this advantage?

Because you can acces all the parameters in the operator
Automating the phase can do wonders for your sound.

OK I'm taking you saying "If we could save groups + settings in Live" to mean saving Operator with reverb etc... if that's not what you mean, and you're talking about the clips saving function of 5, well what I said still holds true. If you compare Operator to Absynth, Operator is not half the synth, even FM7 has built in FX, and more operators.

[hoffman2k]

I agree that reaktor rocks. But absynth is nothing more then 3 layered synths with effects. (to me)
If we could save groups + settings in Live, You could create even sweeter sounds.

the other thing is you're talking about using FX with Operator to get it to compete with Absynth or FM7, so then, how would Operator compete with either when they are given this advantage?

Because you can acces all the parameters in the operator
Automating the phase can do wonders for your sound.

OK I'm taking you saying "If we could save groups + settings in Live" to mean saving Operator with reverb etc... if that's not what you mean, and you're talking about the clips saving function of 5, well what I said still holds true. If you compare Operator to Absynth, Operator is not half the synth, even FM7 has built in FX, and more operators.

To get my point. You probably need my point of view.
I still see Live as a sequencing instrument. Instead of a plugin host.

What i'm talking about "if we could....." is still not entirely implemented in Live 5.
We can save tracks. But we cant save tracks with routings.

I want to be able to save setups like 2 operators + 1 automat + 1 simpler as one patch.
Currently i save those as .als files as a workaround.
Wetter it sounds better then absynth or not. It all depends on who is listening.

Live is still a baby. But it has reached the age for a grow-spurt.

[Machinesworking]

I agree that reaktor rocks. But absynth is nothing more then 3 layered synths with effects. (to me)
If we could save groups + settings in Live, You could create even sweeter sounds.

the other thing is you're talking about using FX with Operator to get it to compete with Absynth or FM7, so then, how would Operator compete with either when they are given this advantage?

Because you can acces all the parameters in the operator
Automating the phase can do wonders for your sound.

OK I'm taking you saying "If we could save groups + settings in Live" to mean saving Operator with reverb etc... if that's not what you mean, and you're talking about the clips saving function of 5, well what I said still holds true. If you compare Operator to Absynth, Operator is not half the synth, even FM7 has built in FX, and more operators.

To get my point. You probably need my point of view.
I still see Live as a sequencing instrument. Instead of a plugin host.

What i'm talking about "if we could....." is still not entirely implemented in Live 5.
We can save tracks. But we cant save tracks with routings.

I want to be able to save setups like 2 operators + 1 automat + 1 simpler as one patch.
Currently i save those as .als files as a workaround.
Wetter it sounds better then absynth or not. It all depends on who is listening.

Live is still a baby. But it has reached the age for a grow-spurt.

OK. I'm trying to translate any of what you're saying to english and it's a little difficult. No offense, but we were talking about the relative merit of Operator, not the merits of being able to save device groups. How that relates to Operators sound and flexibility, I'm just not sure? Especially since it seems that you are talking about as yet implemented features that may or may not make it eventually into Live....

I really don;t want to see Live turn into a closed format host plus some proprietary sounds thing, if that's you're dream of where Live should go, I sincerely hope that Ableton doesn't share that dream.

[hoffman2k]

Give 20 minutes.
I knew i stopped making sense. So i was working on a file to illustrate my point.

But Live crashed while making it. So.... have to send a mail first.
And redo the file.
I'll be back...

[hoffman2k]

Just download the following file for Live 5.
It's 4 operators receiving midi from an arpeggiator.
But they all respond do different velocity's. And the arp has a velocity decay.

Just play with your keyboard on track 1.
This is just an example i just whipped up. Nothing really impressive. But You can get even wilder stuff then that.
You can also automate any parameter of any operator while it's still receiving midi from track one.
You can use other midi plugins like pitch, scale, arp.. to change how every operator reacts to the received notes.

My point is. you can already do some amazing stuff with Live + operator.
Not being able to save routed tracks as patches is an inconvenience.
But it doesn't mean that live cant do such things.

Btw. notice how this uses less cpu then the average pad for the operator.

If you still want to discuss after this. Then i'll give up.
But i'll get back to you as soon as they implement that feature.


http://users.telenet.be/Vayner/Arp4.als.zip

[conny]

The planet of the Abes

Abe Lincoln said, God gotta like ordinary men, because he made so many of them.



// C

[hoffman2k]

Here's something a little more tweaked..

http://users.telenet.be/Vayner/Arp5.als.zip

[Machinesworking]

Hey Hoffman2k, those files are nice, but I'm failing miserably to see how 4 instances of Operator, three Velocity tools, two Ping Pong Delays, and a phaser make Absynth or FM7 pale in comparison?
That's why I think we are talking about different things, and maybe it's because people are thinking that Ableton are only going to be able to save channel strips of FX and soft synths for their proprietary plug ins? Right now Logic 7 can save any plug in and effect combination as a channel strip that can be accessed in any song. I doubt that Ableton will keep this to only their plugs, that would just make their version look second rate, and I don't see that?
So yeah, I thought your Operator patches sounded nice, but I don't think there's anything there that keeps Operator in a different class than FM7 or Absynth, in fact I wonder what that patch combination would sound like with Automat?
Anyway no hard feelings, and you are right, in the end it is a matter of taste. thanks for keeping this debate civil.

[DJRetard]

Hey Hoffman2k, those files are nice, but I'm failing miserably to see how 4 instances of Operator, three Velocity tools, two Ping Pong Delays, and a phaser make Absynth or FM7 pale in comparison?
)

Yeh, hes trying to sell the idea that operator competes with other stuff now that you can save FX with an instance of operator. A bit like in the old days when hardware synths would come shipped with lashing of delay and reverb to make the sounds more impressive in the shop. Hoffman is the first I think that has ever tried to use this sales tactic over the net P:) ---So thats a first -----. GIVE THE EMAN A JOB ABLETON he deserves one.

You gotta give Hoffman points for trying.

gush gush gush