Hi,
is there any way to change the frequency shifter from Hz to semitones?
Cheers,
Jens
Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
It doesn't do that.
Musical tonality is more like a record player. When you for instance change a sound by 12 semitones (an octave), you would double or halve all of the frequencies within the material. The material itself might consist of multiple frequencies stacked on top of eachother (very likely unless the material is one individual sine wave).
So if you have a sound that has tones of 220 hz 440 hz and 880 hz all at once, and you raised it an octave you would get 440, 880 and 1760 hz respectively. It would sound like a record.
The sampler works like this and you can make Grain Delay do this, or do weird bending with other delay devices that would still be musically tonal, but not at semitone intervals.
The Frequency Shifter does not work like this. You cannot raise the pitch by a semitone or an octave as a whole. It only adds or subtracts to every single stacked tone inside the material. So if you thought to 'raise by an octave' your 220, 440, 880, you might raise it by 220 hz to double the fundamental tone. But when you do this, you'll end up with 440, 660, 1100. This is not the same as 440, 880, 1760 from the previous description.
So, you might know the frequency of a tone and attempt to raise it in an increment of hz that would be associated with a semitone, but when you raise it by that much it completely mangles all the overtones to the point that your sound is no longer the same tonality or timbre.
Additionally, the Frequency Shifter doesn't know which overtone in your material you are attempting to change by semitones. If you had 220,440,880 and intended to double the octave but with the 440 being the fundamental tone, you'd end up with 660, 880, 1320 hz. Because now, instead you are adding/shifting '440 hz' for all the tones, where in the other you were shifting all times by 220 hz. Neither of these is really harmonically useful because in music you double or divide or change the ratios of all associated overtones. Not add or subtract the same number to all tones (which means random ratios, instead of consistent ratios).
I'm kind of out of it. I hope I have explained why that is basically not possible, and why the frequency shifter is more of a sound effect than it is a device for editing tonality.
Musical tonality is more like a record player. When you for instance change a sound by 12 semitones (an octave), you would double or halve all of the frequencies within the material. The material itself might consist of multiple frequencies stacked on top of eachother (very likely unless the material is one individual sine wave).
So if you have a sound that has tones of 220 hz 440 hz and 880 hz all at once, and you raised it an octave you would get 440, 880 and 1760 hz respectively. It would sound like a record.
The sampler works like this and you can make Grain Delay do this, or do weird bending with other delay devices that would still be musically tonal, but not at semitone intervals.
The Frequency Shifter does not work like this. You cannot raise the pitch by a semitone or an octave as a whole. It only adds or subtracts to every single stacked tone inside the material. So if you thought to 'raise by an octave' your 220, 440, 880, you might raise it by 220 hz to double the fundamental tone. But when you do this, you'll end up with 440, 660, 1100. This is not the same as 440, 880, 1760 from the previous description.
So, you might know the frequency of a tone and attempt to raise it in an increment of hz that would be associated with a semitone, but when you raise it by that much it completely mangles all the overtones to the point that your sound is no longer the same tonality or timbre.
Additionally, the Frequency Shifter doesn't know which overtone in your material you are attempting to change by semitones. If you had 220,440,880 and intended to double the octave but with the 440 being the fundamental tone, you'd end up with 660, 880, 1320 hz. Because now, instead you are adding/shifting '440 hz' for all the tones, where in the other you were shifting all times by 220 hz. Neither of these is really harmonically useful because in music you double or divide or change the ratios of all associated overtones. Not add or subtract the same number to all tones (which means random ratios, instead of consistent ratios).
I'm kind of out of it. I hope I have explained why that is basically not possible, and why the frequency shifter is more of a sound effect than it is a device for editing tonality.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Another way to think of it is. If you played a single stacked major chord on a piano and you tried shifting it up a semitone.
On sampler or grain delay you can raise it a semitone and it will still be a major chord. It could be a really high pitched major chord and be changed a semitone or a very low pitched major chord and be changed a semitone and still be a major chord.
If you did this with the Frequency Shifter, for a high pitched major chord, you would have to change it by many hz to change it by one semitone. And after you did this it would no longer even be a major chord. It would be a blob of random tones (atonal) that probably are not even in the scale.
If you changed a low pitched chord by one semitone you would change it by very few Hz, but again it would become an unrecognizable blob that is no longer considered a major chord, but some kind of atonal noise.
If you're doing drum sounds however, your best bet is to look up what tone is the fundamental tone using a spectrum of using the Tuner device. Then look up what frequency that fundamental tone is. Then look up the frequencies of the semitones it could change to in relation and do the math (or just tweak it using the Tuner or Spectrum devices).
If your drum sound was very low it would only need to change very few Hz up or down. But a higher pitched drum sound would need to change many hz. Both of these would be cases where you would attempt to go by semitones using one single knob on the Frequency Shifter device. It cannot predict what tone your material is and how many Hz it would need to change in order to be a certain number of semitones because it is always different for material of various pitches.
On sampler or grain delay you can raise it a semitone and it will still be a major chord. It could be a really high pitched major chord and be changed a semitone or a very low pitched major chord and be changed a semitone and still be a major chord.
If you did this with the Frequency Shifter, for a high pitched major chord, you would have to change it by many hz to change it by one semitone. And after you did this it would no longer even be a major chord. It would be a blob of random tones (atonal) that probably are not even in the scale.
If you changed a low pitched chord by one semitone you would change it by very few Hz, but again it would become an unrecognizable blob that is no longer considered a major chord, but some kind of atonal noise.
If you're doing drum sounds however, your best bet is to look up what tone is the fundamental tone using a spectrum of using the Tuner device. Then look up what frequency that fundamental tone is. Then look up the frequencies of the semitones it could change to in relation and do the math (or just tweak it using the Tuner or Spectrum devices).
If your drum sound was very low it would only need to change very few Hz up or down. But a higher pitched drum sound would need to change many hz. Both of these would be cases where you would attempt to go by semitones using one single knob on the Frequency Shifter device. It cannot predict what tone your material is and how many Hz it would need to change in order to be a certain number of semitones because it is always different for material of various pitches.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Thanks for your answers.
I was wondering this as well as Live would need to know which pitch the source material is in to shift it accordingly.
However there is the option to transpose in semitones in the audio menu.
Also there are plugins like waves sound shifter or the Logics internal which allow to dial in semitones. Do those plugins analyze the source material to be able to shift in musical intervals?
Thanks for helping.
I was wondering this as well as Live would need to know which pitch the source material is in to shift it accordingly.
However there is the option to transpose in semitones in the audio menu.
Also there are plugins like waves sound shifter or the Logics internal which allow to dial in semitones. Do those plugins analyze the source material to be able to shift in musical intervals?
Thanks for helping.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Here's an explanation on how basic "pitch shifters" work (not the FrequencyShifter, which is different as described above).
Pitch shifters use two methods, time windowed and frequency windowed.
Time windowing is when the incoming sound is continuously sampled in small chunks (eg 20ms), and each little sample is played back faster and then crossfaded with its predecessors to make a continuous pitch shifted output. Imagine a sample played back faster - its higher pitched and shorter. So this pitch shifter needs to overlay consecutive little samples with crossfades. This makes a sound very like the "tones" warping method. It's granular. It's quite quick and computationally cheap.
The frequency window method is a little like a vocoder - lots of little eq windows listen to the incoming signal and then the outcome is generated based on those amplitudes. The sound quality of this method depends a lot on the number of frequency divisions. With a low window count the sound is low res. A high window count costs CPU. Also the process tends to be at least as slow as the lowest sampled wavelength.
The Frequency Shifter device in Live is (as described) a very different animal. It is a linear shifter, It is more closely related to the ring mod.
Pitch shifters use two methods, time windowed and frequency windowed.
Time windowing is when the incoming sound is continuously sampled in small chunks (eg 20ms), and each little sample is played back faster and then crossfaded with its predecessors to make a continuous pitch shifted output. Imagine a sample played back faster - its higher pitched and shorter. So this pitch shifter needs to overlay consecutive little samples with crossfades. This makes a sound very like the "tones" warping method. It's granular. It's quite quick and computationally cheap.
The frequency window method is a little like a vocoder - lots of little eq windows listen to the incoming signal and then the outcome is generated based on those amplitudes. The sound quality of this method depends a lot on the number of frequency divisions. With a low window count the sound is low res. A high window count costs CPU. Also the process tends to be at least as slow as the lowest sampled wavelength.
The Frequency Shifter device in Live is (as described) a very different animal. It is a linear shifter, It is more closely related to the ring mod.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Oh ok, intersting. The first method I suppose will then still suffer of Micky mouse voices etc as formants won't be recognized. The file just gets played back faster and interpolation is used to fill the gaps in between the slices to keep the sound duration constant?
Nevertheless does the algorithm need the information which frequency the material is before it gets shifted, doesn't it?
Anyway - found a plugin to suit my needs.
Was just curious if there was a way to do it internally in Ableton.
Nevertheless does the algorithm need the information which frequency the material is before it gets shifted, doesn't it?
Anyway - found a plugin to suit my needs.
Was just curious if there was a way to do it internally in Ableton.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
The reason that software doesn't need to 'know' the freq for standard pitch shifting is because it is just multiplying ratios.
If you want to go up an octave, do *2. If you want to go up a semitone do *1.03 (I don't actually know the amount offhand for one semitone, I chose some random decimal value). If you want to go down, do *0.05 or *0.98.
If you multiply all content of a sample, all of the overtones are treated the same and are all moved by a ratio. Music is all about the ratios. 4:5, 3:4, 1:2 etc. if you multiplied 4:5 by 1.5 you would have 6:7.5. Which you could double to be 12:15, which ends up still being a 4:5 ratio. The relationship is maintained.
The Shifter does addition to all the overtones. It is fun to use something like a saw or square wav and use frequency shifter while watching a spectrum analyzer (in contrast to using pitch shifting). The relationship between the peaks is different as you apply freq shift as opposed to pitch
If you add 1.5 to a 4:5 ratio (+1.5) you get 5.5:6.5. You could double these to find that your relationship is 11:13. There is absolutely no way that 11:13 can become 4:5 through the usual 'musical' multiplication method. It no longer represents the original ratio and that relationship is lost. You will hear a totally different, unrelated sound (kind of cool haha)
So yeah, software doesn't need to know because it uses multiples, ratios, it can apply these blindly and retain musical characteristics.
If you want to go up an octave, do *2. If you want to go up a semitone do *1.03 (I don't actually know the amount offhand for one semitone, I chose some random decimal value). If you want to go down, do *0.05 or *0.98.
If you multiply all content of a sample, all of the overtones are treated the same and are all moved by a ratio. Music is all about the ratios. 4:5, 3:4, 1:2 etc. if you multiplied 4:5 by 1.5 you would have 6:7.5. Which you could double to be 12:15, which ends up still being a 4:5 ratio. The relationship is maintained.
The Shifter does addition to all the overtones. It is fun to use something like a saw or square wav and use frequency shifter while watching a spectrum analyzer (in contrast to using pitch shifting). The relationship between the peaks is different as you apply freq shift as opposed to pitch
If you add 1.5 to a 4:5 ratio (+1.5) you get 5.5:6.5. You could double these to find that your relationship is 11:13. There is absolutely no way that 11:13 can become 4:5 through the usual 'musical' multiplication method. It no longer represents the original ratio and that relationship is lost. You will hear a totally different, unrelated sound (kind of cool haha)
So yeah, software doesn't need to know because it uses multiples, ratios, it can apply these blindly and retain musical characteristics.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Well if you're dealing with prerecorded audio you can always MIDI map the transpose dial in the audio clip. You'll still get a bit of a Mickey Mouse effect but that's pitch shifting for you.yentzee wrote: Was just curious if there was a way to do it internally in Ableton.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
If you want to pitch shift and get some control of the mickey mouse effect, trying bouncing to audio (unless already a sample), then use the complex pro warp mode. You can pitch shift the clip by semi-tones and the formant control may yield something useful for you.
Otherwise find someone with melodyne to re-process it (which can re-purpose sampled chords from minor to major for e.g.).
Otherwise find someone with melodyne to re-process it (which can re-purpose sampled chords from minor to major for e.g.).
Nothing to see here - move along!
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
All,this being said - it is pretty strange that Live doesnt have a basic pitch shifter.
I have a vague memory that when Gerhard worked at Native Instruments he was the person who added the granular synthesis to Reaktor's parent synth Generator.
So the granular "tones" mode of pitch shifting was pretty much the origin of Ableton especially when it got the beat hinting to make "beats" mode, and yet it never became an effect device. It's weird really!
I have a vague memory that when Gerhard worked at Native Instruments he was the person who added the granular synthesis to Reaktor's parent synth Generator.
So the granular "tones" mode of pitch shifting was pretty much the origin of Ableton especially when it got the beat hinting to make "beats" mode, and yet it never became an effect device. It's weird really!
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
With the max for live pack that has many pitch-related devices already in existence, it might not be a priority.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
I never knew he worked at NI originally.Angstrom wrote:All,this being said - it is pretty strange that Live doesnt have a basic pitch shifter.
I have a vague memory that when Gerhard worked at Native Instruments he was the person who added the granular synthesis to Reaktor's parent synth Generator.
So the granular "tones" mode of pitch shifting was pretty much the origin of Ableton especially when it got the beat hinting to make "beats" mode, and yet it never became an effect device. It's weird really!
Yes - it is surprising - at least since the complex pro mode was added.
At least they added it into simpler which has made it a really useful manipulation tool now - shame they didn't do it for sampler as well - just because that has more mod/env options.
I just wish simpler didn't reset everything when you change the sample - grrr!
Nothing to see here - move along!
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Yeah, Gerhard and Bernd both passed through NI.
there's an interesting interview with Stephan Schmitt here, I anchored the relevant part but the whole thing is worth a read for the insights.
https://bigbrainaudio.com/2011/09/inter ... firstyears
The problem with all realtime pitch shifting methods is latency, of course. The current Live beats/tone/complex modes all get around that issue because they have access to the audio from the disk ahead of time. I think the Complex algo is a DFD or RAM lookahead solution which probably doesn't translate well to an effect container. I know Zplane (Who make the Complex / Complex pro time stretch) do a realitime algo called 4Tune though. https://licensing.zplane.de/technology#elastique
And yes, the Simpler resetting is a weird decision. I filed a bug report and was told that it's a feature.
there's an interesting interview with Stephan Schmitt here, I anchored the relevant part but the whole thing is worth a read for the insights.
https://bigbrainaudio.com/2011/09/inter ... firstyears
The problem with all realtime pitch shifting methods is latency, of course. The current Live beats/tone/complex modes all get around that issue because they have access to the audio from the disk ahead of time. I think the Complex algo is a DFD or RAM lookahead solution which probably doesn't translate well to an effect container. I know Zplane (Who make the Complex / Complex pro time stretch) do a realitime algo called 4Tune though. https://licensing.zplane.de/technology#elastique
And yes, the Simpler resetting is a weird decision. I filed a bug report and was told that it's a feature.
Last edited by Angstrom on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Frequency shifter change from Frequency to semitones?
Hmm - then its a design bug ;pAngstrom wrote:And yes, the Simpler resetting is a weird decision. I filed a bug report and was told that it's a feature.
Nothing to see here - move along!