Live input monitoring very low when composing.

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MIAR
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Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:06 am

Hi Guys,

Very low signal from my *live input monitoring* in context of the rough tracking mix. Raising the Mic pre too high is not such a good option as I want to avoid too hot a signal. I can add a "gain" boost on the channel but wonder is there anything else I'm missing or thoughts on how you negotiate these low signals while staying in Live input mode.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:39 am

MIAR wrote: Very low signal from my *live input monitoring* in context of the rough tracking mix.
So what's the difference between how the rough tracking was done and how you record now?

What are the actual volume differences? "Low" isn't saying much.
Make some music!

MIAR
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:58 am

"Low" meaning not quite a usable level to hear clearly what your playing within the mix. The signal in my phones IS the mix and live input monitoring in its entirety.

miyaru
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by miyaru » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am

Are you using an external audio device, which has it's own monitor path? If so use that, or lower the rest of your mix during tracking.....
Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, ESI M4U eX, Reason 12, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8 and Monitor Station V2, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :mrgreen:

MIAR
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:18 pm

Using a Rode M1 through a Focusrite Trackmaster Pro. The M1 seems to have a really low output and have to boost the Pre or the "live input gain".

I have tried lowering the mix alright but I have to lower it all by near -30db.
Also Ableton's waveform of the recording stays mostly at a flatline as its so low.
Pushing the Mic pre higher is picking up too much room noise.

Maybe the M1 is a problem here... ?

Stromkraft
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:38 pm

MIAR wrote:"Low" meaning not quite a usable level to hear clearly what your playing within the mix. The signal in my phones IS the mix and live input monitoring in its entirety.
This is still insufficient information. What does the meters of the Focusrite Trackmaster Pro and of the tracks inside Live say?
Make some music!

MIAR
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:47 pm

TRackmaster 8/10 input vol but only registering about maybe around -16db (can be boosted by engaging COMP and Makeup gain but adding too much noise for me)
Ableton Live input only peaking around a 5th of the way up its meter

Angstrom
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by Angstrom » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:20 am

M1 is a reasonably low impedence mic.
That would probably require pressing the impedence switch on that track-master

"Hi-Z"

MIAR
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:39 am

Its actual Low-Z o the trackmaster and has to opposite effect.

Thanks for suggestion though.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:16 pm

MIAR wrote:TRackmaster 8/10 input vol but only registering about maybe around -16db (can be boosted by engaging COMP and Makeup gain but adding too much noise for me)
Ableton Live input only peaking around a 5th of the way up its meter
How loud do you think -16dB is in a 24bit set (assuming 24bit is what you use) is? The maximum loudness in a 24bit file is 144dB. If you're peaking in Live at -16dB, that's Full Scale. Go down 16dB from 144 and you're at 128dBFS. That's hideously loud for a microphone recording. This has very little to do with how the mix will be peaking when ready. Don't expect a natural signal to be peaking similarly to mixed material or of software origin.

I strongly believe, because of personal experience, that one reason Live have been said to sound bad in different contexts is because of users not understanding the disconnect between acoustic recording and end product (warping is also a factor). Which is somewhat understandable as Live displays its waveforms in audio clips in a 0dBFS scale and with no zoom, which makes audio look soft when it isn't. Ableton should change this.

I think it's a good idea for all of us to read up about metering and loudness. For instance What Is Loudness And Why Is It Important? or LUFS, dBFS, RMS… WTF ?!? How to read the new loudness meters.

I believe what you have there is the TrakMaster Pro without a "c", no? When other people don't know the product it's downright confusing to spell it wrong. I read that the TrakMaster Pro is an ultraclean interface not supposed to be driven hard as it's preamp is not as forgiving as its predecessor.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Make some music!

MIAR
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:31 pm

"Trackmaster Pro" yes sorry.

Your comments make sense alright. I used to use SONAR for tracking and it had a zoom function on the wave form which now I think of it, I really miss. Would be cool for Ableton to add such a feature someday too.

I had been using a Condenser RODE NT1a for Vocals up until now so since this change to the Dynamic RODE M1 fir Live acoustic instruments I guess I'm crying wolf a little here. ;>

Stromkraft
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Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:25 am

Stromkraft wrote:
MIAR wrote:TRackmaster 8/10 input vol but only registering about maybe around -16db (can be boosted by engaging COMP and Makeup gain but adding too much noise for me)
Ableton Live input only peaking around a 5th of the way up its meter
How loud do you think -16dB is in a 24bit set (assuming 24bit is what you use) is? The maximum loudness in a 24bit file is 144dB. If you're peaking in Live at -16dB, that's Full Scale. Go down 16dB from 144 and you're at 128dBFS. That's hideously loud for a microphone recording…
…as Live displays its waveforms in audio clips in a 0dBFS scale
MIAR wrote: Your comments make sense alright.
Actually, not completely. With further inspection it seems clear to me the actual levels mentioned were wrong of me to assume. I was mixing this up with recording that I've done outside of Live.

The waveforms in Live Audio clips do not indicate the actual recording volume. The 0dB point isn't moving up with greater bit depth.

The general trend for me though have been that fully acceptable recording levels in the audio interface looks low once recorded.

I'm still standing behind that Live won't be recording too low provided the audio interface has satisfactory normal input levels from the mic and that acoustical recording levels will differ from natively created audio.
Make some music!

MIAR
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:36 am

Re: Live input monitoring very low when composing.

Post by MIAR » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:26 pm

I think thats sound about right. ^^

Same levels going into SONAR seem visably higher (waveform wise) then Ableton clips

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