Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Angstrom
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:58 pm

I disagree that I am " disparaging about it in all contexts" . That misrepresents my position. I think its not a panacea and it should not be treated that way.

Consider the spec process. "our users need a reverb device" . We spec it. A base level music production device used and relied upon every day? What container should we use. Should it be open and editable, or is repeatablity important, across platforms. Stability?
Is a primary demand to edit and modify it, will 60% of the users want to tinker inside and use parts in their own reverbs? If so then yes, it should be made in M4L. If that were the case.

Reverb is a core production effect. Like a good EQ, or a good compressor. Ableton Live has THREE native compressor devices.
why? Because they are base level tools that all music producers need every day. What I want in my core production toolset is Andy Cytomics best work.

Does that prevent you from making a great dynamics device in your own time? Not at all. Would I resent a 3rd party M4L dynamics device? Not at all But ... Would I want to rely on that?

Consider that Live packs have no versioning system, Max device packs such as the "core" pack which convo reverb is part of. Consider that an open framework is an invitation to variablity. I bet that you and I have different versions of this Convo reverb on our systems, but that neither of them is up to date.

BTW, I am fully capable of coding in Max, I prefer the JS interface rather thatn the boxes and wires metaphor ... my day job is server side and JS, APIs and databases. I have made several things in M4L that would not be possible with a native device. But a reverbis better suited to a native device.

ecuk
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by ecuk » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:51 pm

I think we are agreed far more than we are disagreed. Indeed, I am not sure we are disagreed at all. Yes, it would be better if a convolution reverb were included native in Live instead of being an add-on via M4L. No argument there whatsoever.

I also agree that Live's versioning system—or lack thereof—is a severe problem that I sincerely hope Ableton eventually addresses. I agree that Max is not a panacea. (I myself these days prefer Extempore or writing my own VSTs/AUs, but there are times when M4L is very convenient. Interfacing Extempore to Live is a bother, and writing your own VSTs/AUs is a bother in oh so many other ways.) Moreover, I agree that Max is often (usually?) loads easier to program using text-based JS and Gen than the fiddly boxes and cords thingies. And so on...

And I suspect that we are more or less agreed that Max—not M4L but Max—is not the bottleneck in either performance or capability.

In short, I will gladly second your motion that Ableton should provide a native convolution reverb. Doing so would bypass all of these M4L issues, and it would no doubt be far better integrated for day-to-day use by music producers. I would love to have a convolution reverb that was as readily available, as integrated into Live and as reliable as the existing Reverb.

Fair enough?

Cheers,
Eric
MacBook Pro, macOS Mojave 10.14.6, 2.7GHz i7, 16GB – Live Suite 10.1, Max 8.0.8, Push 2, ATH-M50x

Angstrom
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:50 pm

Right. Agreed.
Now lets just get Amo & the spec team to sign this one off and we are golden.
:twisted:

[jur]
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by [jur] » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:17 am

Angstrom wrote:Right. Agreed.
Now lets just get Amo & the spec team to sign this one off and we are golden.
:twisted:
You know Amaury's email, right? :wink:
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SvenH
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by SvenH » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:33 am

I played around a bit more with the reverb today and I think I get your comments. It certainly has its own sound and it is not 100% realistic, but I do like the sound of it and I find it quite easy to understand its parameters. This will be a nice tool in my toolbox! :D

login
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by login » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:15 am

It would be great if Abes brought VVV to Live as they did with the glue. I love to have great plugs inside Live with the typical integrated GUI.


VVV and valhalla room must be the best deals around for reverb, they sound incredible good and are very afordable.

yur2die4
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by yur2die4 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:36 am

Just remember that Ableton Reverb sums audio to mono before it does its wet processing.

Any dry signal retains its original sound, but if you had a chirp on the hard left or right the reverb wouldn't know the difference. Also, some widening/enhancement effects might disappear completely due to phasing and the reverb would not respond the same to those sounds.

There are some stereo presets that use multiple instances of reverb with utility.

SvenH
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by SvenH » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:27 am

login wrote:It would be great if Abes brought VVV to Live as they did with the glue. I love to have great plugs inside Live with the typical integrated GUI.


VVV and valhalla room must be the best deals around for reverb, they sound incredible good and are very afordable.
+1!

SvenH
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by SvenH » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:28 am

yur2die4 wrote:Just remember that Ableton Reverb sums audio to mono before it does its wet processing.

Any dry signal retains its original sound, but if you had a chirp on the hard left or right the reverb wouldn't know the difference. Also, some widening/enhancement effects might disappear completely due to phasing and the reverb would not respond the same to those sounds.

There are some stereo presets that use multiple instances of reverb with utility.
Good to know, thanks for pointing that out!

Angstrom
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by Angstrom » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:37 am

[jur] wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Right. Agreed.
Now lets just get Amo & the spec team to sign this one off and we are golden. :twisted:
You know Amaury's email, right? :wink:
:lol: He's suffered enough!

TomKern
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by TomKern » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:27 pm

[jur] wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Right. Agreed.
Now lets just get Amo & the spec team to sign this one off and we are golden.
:twisted:
You know Amaury's email, right? :wink:
Ah, please if you write don't forget to mention the LFO!

I can buy an extra convolution reverb, but I can not buy an extra LFO that I can assign to each parameter in Live (exempt with Midi workarounds that are not at audio rate and error prone).

Also I think the limitation that you can only assign the LFO to a parameter OR control the parameter via automation/directly (or only one LFO to one parameter) comes from the M4L character of it. At least none of the LFOs in the Suite instruments have that limitation.

So please, please, pretty please Ableton make a native LFO happen :!:

Stromkraft
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:41 pm

Angstrom wrote:Yep, the Convolution Pro reverb is very good but it's a real shame it's not a native device because convolution is notoriously resource intensive ... and there's surely some additional M4L resource overhead.
Maybe, but one instance uses no more CPU than for example Waves IR-L.
Make some music!

Angstrom
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by Angstrom » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:25 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Yep, the Convolution Pro reverb is very good but it's a real shame it's not a native device because convolution is notoriously resource intensive ... and there's surely some additional M4L resource overhead.
Maybe, but one instance uses no more CPU than for example Waves IR-L.
It's a very good device. Possibly the best creation I've seen of its type in M4L . I'm sure we've all taken a look inside and said "wow". But there are benefits to going native. For example - from what I know (which is not much ) ....
in Live 9 Ableton spent time on lowering CPU overhead, but improving some code which turns off signal paths through native devices if their input is silent. The Convo reverb without input costs me about 7% of CPU. I suspect that a Native version could sit silently closer to 1%. (I am totally guessing here)
TomKern wrote: Ah, please if you write don't forget to mention the LFO!
I'm confident Amo still lurks these forums occasionally and is aware of all of the many opinions we hold. In the past I used to try and persuade him about things, but it's a big company and there are a lot of moving parts. The last time I heard from him he mentioned that 25 ableton staff were all performing at a workmates 40th birthday party, so imagine ... that big company, with lots of Ableton users in it. I'm sure they all have enough opinions to get by with.

Although mine are still available !

TomKern
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by TomKern » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:26 pm

login wrote: VVV and valhalla room must be the best deals around for reverb, they sound incredible good and are very afordable.
I always feel that Lexicon gets (unjustly) overlooked in these threads. The LXP bundle is rather cheap (for Lexicon), covers all bases, has useful visuals, tons of controls, is light on CPU and sounds awesome.

It sells for 199 USD for 4 reverbs. (but I have seen it for half the price before, iLok2 unfortunately required though )

http://lexiconpro.com/en/products/lxp-n ... -in-bundle
Last edited by TomKern on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TomKern
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Re: Ableton reverb is not that bad!?

Post by TomKern » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:30 pm

Angstrom wrote:
TomKern wrote: Ah, please if you write don't forget to mention the LFO!
I'm confident Amo still lurks these forums occasionally and is aware of all of the many opinions we hold. In the past I used to try and persuade him about things, but it's a big company and there are a lot of moving parts. The last time I heard from him he mentioned that 25 ableton staff were all performing at a workmates 40th birthday party, so imagine ... that big company, with lots of Ableton users in it. I'm sure they all have enough opinions to get by with.
One wouldn't know it just going by what they actually deliver.
Although mine are still available !
Nice :mrgreen:

My number one rant would be: no time stretching for Sampler :x

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