Plugin Delay on Freeze and Flatten

[jkung]

I just came across this video by Multiplier where he proves that Freeze and Flatten induces latency that is visible on the track. I have recreated this in my computer as well. Has anyone been also able to replicate it? If so, this is a major issue that needs to be solved.

https://youtu.be/lnkvYKm7YOI

[pottering]

I own PunchBox, just tested it with other drum plugins and drum racks (including d16's own Drumazon), seems it is a PunchBox problem, not Ableton Live's. I'm going to report this in d16's forums.

[edit:] Seems plugin instruments can have delay latency just like plugin effects. U-he's Ace synth reports a 16 samples latency to Live. Maybe that's Punchbox's problem.

[[jur]]

Yep, with plugins that have latency, the latency will be kept even when the track is frozen... unfortunately.

[jkung]

apparently it is not compensated with PDC when frozen. It is supposed to be compensated for on playback and export. However, when you want to freeze/flatten and treat the file as an audio file to manipulate, there is a delay. I have been going back through some tracks i did in the past and noticed it. It is quite disappointing.

[mikb]

apparently it is not compensated with PDC when frozen. It is supposed to be compensated for on playback and export. However, when you want to freeze/flatten and treat the file as an audio file to manipulate, there is a delay. I have been going back through some tracks i did in the past and noticed it. It is quite disappointing.

That is just so wrong. You're imagining things, analyzing too shallow or not understanding how Delay Compensation is supposed to work or how digital audio works.

There are indeed some issues with PDC in Live and as far as I know they all relate to the delay compensation of automation that finally arrived with Live 9.2 and some specific limitations with PDC, like Group tracks. PDC normally work really well!

Another thing to watch out for is MIDI latency when using MIDI effects and odd routings.

My take on this is that this is a hysteric reaction with potentially some minor issues concerning only certain plug-ins and not most instruments and plug-ins that add some latency.

I just love it when someone think they're the only one that gets it and that all other producers using the same tool are too stupid to even notice. All Pros I know have been dealing with latency issues since forever. Some tools may not work as well as others. Live works well though in this department (reaches for the wooden table).

[pottering]

But isn't it then compensated with PDC?

Because that plugin doesn't report any latency, it shows "0 latency" when hovering the pointer over the device.

[pottering]

Also, printing the audio w/ the actual latency makes perfect sense for a DAW meant for LIVE performances, where you need to know exactly what is going to happen when you press "play".

You CAN'T REMOVE latency, only add the same latency to other tracks to compensate (hence delay compensation), so it makes sense to show what is actually happening, instead of putting make up on it.

The frozen&flattened audio in that video is only showing how the plugin behaves normally when unfrozen, that is, the plugin has (unreported) latency, it is not Ableton adding it when freezing.

DAWs that cut that latency are only misleading their users, who get the illusion that DAW is "removing latency", which is IMPOSSIBLE (at least until we have time-travelling CPUs).

[mikb]

Yep, with plugins that have latency, the latency will be kept even when the track is frozen... unfortunately.

I say this is leading to erroneous conclusions. I just tested with a plug-in that adds more than 3000 samples of latency and this does not move the audio from where I expect it with Delay Compensation active. Your statement seems extremely incomplete to me. Because my results directly contradict what you say here.

The interesting part isn't latency itself — which really only affects any playing and live interaction with the track — but where in relation to the timeline you hear the music and also where the audio lands on the timeline once it is audio.

[jkung]

in the multiplier video, he noticed that it affected his transients. so without documentation on the subject, we are supposed to just know that their is this issue. so the conclusion is, deal with it because everyone has gotten used to it.

[mikb]

in the multiplier video, he noticed that it affected his transients. so without documentation on the subject, we are supposed to just know that their is this issue. so the conclusion is, deal with it because everyone has gotten used to it.

Well, the man is clearly tripping. I have no confidence in the man. I don't care what other people may think of him as I have eyes and ears to evaluate with. I've seen and heard enough.

Again, I got NOTHING like the issues he has in the video. The solution is simple: don't work like, yawn, Multiplier…

[mikb]

You CAN'T REMOVE latency, only add the same latency to other tracks to compensate (hence delay compensation), so it makes sense to show what is actually happening, instead of putting make up on it.

When you convert the result to audio you can, if you're doing it right.