MIDI CC automation issue - Hardware Synth KIWI-3P

[jobinho]

I've setup a Kiwi-3P with the Patch Editor but have an issue when automating the MIDI CC's in Ableton Live.

As soon as there's a sloped increase or decrease in the automation lane the 3P can't deal with it - straight lines are fine. I'm unsure if it goes into a midi loop but it works well until theres a ramp up or down then it freezes. Maybe the data of the automation changing is overloading the 3P? This is the same whether using the PE or going straight out of the 3P into my sound card - I've tested multiple midi cables and 2 interfaces.

My current MIDI routing is:
MIDI OUT from PE -> 3P MIDI IN
MIDI OUT from RME -> PE MIDI IN
MIDI OUT from 3P -> RME MIDI IN

As automation is critical to my workflow is there anything you can think of that may be causing this? I know it may be Live itself and will look to test in another DAW but thought I'd ask incase this has been resolved by anyone.

Any insight would be a big help!

[jobinho]

Bumping incase anyone can help! I'm new to Live but someone has said I may be able to route the midi in Live differently.

Also, it's only freezing and spluttering when the automation is drawn, not when I'm adjusting the cc params manually from my trackpad or Push.

Thanks

[doghouse]

So if you create stepped automation it works but continuous automation does not? Does the speed of the automation matter? For example sweeping the filter over 8 bars instead of every quarter note.

[jobinho]

So if you create stepped automation it works but continuous automation does not? Does the speed of the automation matter? For example sweeping the filter over 8 bars instead of every quarter note.

Hello - yes exactly. As soon as there's the slightest ramping up or down it creates hanging notes, freezing and just completely goes weird.

It also doesn't matter the length of the sweep - when it becomes a continuous line it stops working correctly.

I've experimented with the options.txt scripts -MidiEventThinning=0.1 & -ThinningAggressiveness=0.1. I've also tested differnt MIDI interfaces so believe the issue to be with Live - I'm about to test another DAW.

Can you think of anything worth testing?

[jobinho]

I've just tested in Bitwig 2.1 and it works fine. The problem seems to be inside Live.

[jobinho]

Just incase anyone has any ideas before I switch DAW?

The MIDI automation is working great in Logic and Bitwig.

[chapelier fou]

You should contact Ableton's support.
I'd like to know what's happening, out of curiosity.

[miyaru]

As you can see in my post, I've got hanging synths too. Not yet tested my Korg N1 and R3 with drawn mididata, will test it on sunday.

Have you got the problem with all CC data? You tested the option of thinning out mididata, this should do yhe trick. (this is a standard command in Cubase 5.5).

My guess at this moment is the fact Live can't handle larger amounts of mididata, altough my problem lies in the syncing of Live to my synths using the sync button in the midi pref. page. As stated above, will test CC data tommorow!

[miyaru]

Tested CC data today, a bussy miditrack with drawn CC 71 and CC 74, also very bussy - but no problems as well on a hardware synth as with the softsynth massive from NI.

Have you got sync set in the prefs page on the midiconnection to your hardwaresynth?

Try to disable it if so, and see what happens. This option leaves you without the syncing of oscilators and arpergiators though......

[jobinho]

You should contact Ableton's support.
I'd like to know what's happening, out of curiosity.

I've had extensive contact with Ableton support, unfortunately there's nothing they can do. Live's MIDI just doesn't work well with the Kiwi-3P. Here's their last message to me.

"I'll to pass the message along to our Quality Assurance team, so they're aware of the inconsistency.
While this is a rather rare use case, our developers are passionate about making Live as adaptable as possible.

Unfortunately, this is as far as I can take you.

Since the error is the result of two fundamentally different implementations of MIDI, there is no further support I am able to provide. I'm going to close out your case for now, but please invite Murray to contact us if he would like to relate these concerns to our developers. The more information we have about an issue, the better we are able to address it in future releases."

The message above was a responce to this one from Murray at Kiwitechnics:

"The output from Ableton is repeating the same command with the same output value over and over. This is pretty bad practice and fills the midi channel up with data that has no effect and only gets in the way of other commands. What the Kiwi range does is suppress a midi output if the command is exactly the same as the last one sent and only sends a command if the value has changed. This is simple to do in the software and then only useful commands are sent through the midi channel.

This shouldn't effect the K3P but I will check if it is doing something unexpected. I expect the other DAWs are handling midi output better and only outputting a command if the value has changed."

Oh well.... I may be moving DAW which is a shame but I need this synth to work. Logic or Bitwig?

[jobinho]

Tested CC data today, a bussy miditrack with drawn CC 71 and CC 74, also very bussy - but no problems as well on a hardware synth as with the softsynth massive from NI.

Have you got sync set in the prefs page on the midiconnection to your hardwaresynth?

Try to disable it if so, and see what happens. This option leaves you without the syncing of oscilators and arpergiators though......

Thanks for the input as you can see from the message above, nothing got resolved.

[GdabZ]

I've got the same issue with a Moog Sub37 and a Korg Minilogue.

I record a complex automation in a clip (let's say VCO2 Frequency), and it isn't played well (note hangs sometime).

I disabled midi IN from the synths to prevent a loop that would mess with the automation, but it still works bad.

I was able to make it work using M4L devices, but it's a bit disappointing. Works out of the box in FL Studio.

[miyaru]

In the meantime, I sold my old trusty MOTU Miditimepiece AV, switched to USB/Midi for the Korg R3 and for my Korg N1 I use a MOTU Fastlane now, and all seems solved.

I must say I switched PC too, from a Win7/64 - Live 9.7.1 suite to a Win10pro/64 - Live 9.7.4 suite setup.

My culprit was the Timepiece AV midi interface I guess......

[GdabZ]

I'm up to date, hardware and software-wise.

My synths are plugged to my computer via a USB hub. I will test without the hub, maybe there's a bottleneck there. But it would be weird if it worked, as it works already with a M4L device. It's the standard clip enveloppe automation that is laggy.

I could also try a midi interface instead of plugging my synths to my computer via USB. But as it works in FL Studio or in Live with the proper M4L device, it seems a dispensable expense.

[mlau]

I have the same issue here. Continous automation in clip envelopes floods the whole MIDI interface (EMagic MT-4) ja freezes my hardware synths. This is maybe because Live sends every interpolated value via MIDI, even if the value rounded to the nearest MIDI CC value is always the same (which is totally bloat to the devices). This makes Live almost impossible to use for clip envelope automations. Drawing steps helps a bit, but I think I need a drawing table and more stable hand for getting proper results.. It is easier to record MIDI straight from the synth, though it won't help if the knobs are faulty.. I think Logic and Cubase has more "event" based automation system sending new CC value via MIDI only if it changes from the previous CC value. That is the only thing now what I really miss from them.. Maybe modern MIDI interfaces can filter those bloat events out and that's why they work better with some people.