big midi latency on thoughput with delay compensation on

[Rosspunk]

Using a lot external synths here...

With delay compensation on, the latency is long! almost a full 1/4 note, and completely unusable, is this right?

Running without delay compensation is very problematic because one is not able to put negative delay on the audio channels to compensate for the (normal) latency on the out going midi sequence notes, So without delay compensation I’m struggling to get it all in time.

Would really like to hear what can be done, I’m at the stage of not using ableton if this cant be resolved.

The midi interface is a Electron TM-1

[channelite]

Sounds like you have a higher buffer size. Try not monitoring audio in Live, but use instead direct monitoring in your audio interface or use a mixer.

[Richie Witch]

A couple of things you can try....

1) Incoming MIDI latency gets progressively worse the more tracks the project has. If you're just recording, try bouncing the existing audio tracks just to use as a guide when recording the MIDI clip. Outgoing MIDI does not have the same problem, so you can drop the newly-recorded MIDI clip into the original project and you shouldn't hear any latency problems.

2) If you're recording a multitrack session of hardware synths, pick one of the synths (or some other piece of hardware) as you master clock, and sync Live to that. You should find all the synths will then record in time with each other and an equal amount of offset in Live. You won't be able to hear that difference when you're recording, and each clip will only need to be trimmed the same amount to line up perfectly in Live afterwards.

I've had a lot of luck with both these techniques.

[Rosspunk]

So thanks Gents, the buffer size is 32 and my synth go direct to a mixer. It's 48 track template (24 incoming synths and 24 tracks from a 24 track recorder.

The latency is ok with delay compensation off. But unplayable with it on.

The tips will try, thanks!

Have read that Bit wig doesn't delay midi

[Stromkraft]

Running without delay compensation is very problematic because one is not able to put negative delay on the audio channels to compensate for the (normal) latency on the out going midi sequence notes,

This is not how to compensate! Use External Instrument and use the Hardware Latency slider. And forget using track delay as this only adds total latency (for negative track delays all other tracks are delayed instead). It's basically useless as many people think what it does isn't what is actually happening in use.

What do you mean how you're using a lot of external instruments anyway? Are you playing them by hand and recording as audio? And you monitor directly in the mixer before the audio gets to Live and you have no monitor on in the Live mixer? Or do you use native and/or external sequencers and need to put it right in time as audio only? Or you record MIDI as well?

You need to setup this properly in order for it to work. We don't use as many synths as you, only 10 or so, but the system is always playable. Unless your machine is too weak it should be very possible to get it to work.

[riddor74]

To jump in on this thread

Im having a similar problem

I have completed the driver error compensation task so far and am running at 64 samples. Im monitoring through Ableton. although I can have an option of monitoring via Total mix directly..but I'm unsure if this causes issues is using external effects for external outboard, I'm sure it wouldn't?

We use the external instrument and external effect plugs constantly. I have been researching a lot and came to the conclusion that the track delay method was the best way on each midi track but from your response I see this isn't the case.

So the best bet is reduced latency when monitoring and use the individually sliders within the external inst and effect plugs?

If I directly monitored via total mix which is possible, would that mean than all latency sliders in the external inst plugs are left as the direct monitor would be correct? if this was the case when reverting to internal monitoring within Ableton once recorded would the audio be correctly aligned (i.e. it sounded right via direct monitoring so would be once recorded?)

Running without delay compensation is very problematic because one is not able to put negative delay on the audio channels to compensate for the (normal) latency on the out going midi sequence notes,

This is not how to compensate! Use External Instrument and use the Hardware Latency slider. And forget using track delay as this only adds total latency (for negative track delays all other tracks are delayed instead). It's basically useless as many people think what it does isn't what is actually happening in use.

What do you mean how you're using a lot of external instruments anyway? Are you playing them by hand and recording as audio? And you monitor directly in the mixer before the audio gets to Live and you have no monitor on in the Live mixer? Or do you use native and/or external sequencers and need to put it right in time as audio only? Or you record MIDI as well?

You need to setup this properly in order for it to work. We don't use as many synths as you, only 10 or so, but the system is always playable. Unless your machine is too weak it should be very possible to get it to work.

[Stromkraft]

So the best bet is reduced latency when monitoring and use the individually sliders within the external inst and effect plugs?

If I directly monitored via total mix which is possible, would that mean than all latency sliders in the external inst plugs are left as the direct monitor would be correct? if this was the case when reverting to internal monitoring within Ableton once recorded would the audio be correctly aligned (i.e. it sounded right via direct monitoring so would be once recorded?)

I'd say so yes, barring the fact that each setup is somewhat different. Direct monitoring in TotalMix or in an external mixer is what I use. For audio recordings in Live then I set monitor to "off". In practice for me I only have to adjust the hardware latency slider for external synced sequencers or arpeggiators (the latter usually can be offset on the synth) and way more seldom for MIDI notes or CC. Typically I record synths at 96kHz and a 128-256 samples buffer setting.

What I hear in monitor is what plays back, but you need to watch out for where in the played line you start recording. The timing may be shifted if you later can't start the clip post-recording so that your recorded playing happens at the intended time. If this happens the start point of the clip may need adjusting and possibly the loop as well.

[riddor74]

So the best bet is reduced latency when monitoring and use the individually sliders within the external inst and effect plugs?

If I directly monitored via total mix which is possible, would that mean than all latency sliders in the external inst plugs are left as the direct monitor would be correct? if this was the case when reverting to internal monitoring within Ableton once recorded would the audio be correctly aligned (i.e. it sounded right via direct monitoring so would be once recorded?)

I'd say so yes, barring the fact that each setup is somewhat different. Direct monitoring in TotalMix or in an external mixer is what I use. For audio recordings in Live then I set monitor to "off". In practice for me I only have to adjust the hardware latency slider for external synced sequencers or arpeggiators (the latter usually can be offset on the synth) and way more seldom for MIDI notes or CC. Typically I record synths at 96kHz and a 128-256 samples buffer setting.

What I hear in monitor is what plays back, but you need to watch out for where in the played line you start recording. The timing may be shifted if you later can't start the clip post-recording so that your recorded playing happens at the intended time. If this happens the start point of the clip may need adjusting and possibly the loop as well.

Thanks, I'm going to have one last go working with monitoring inside Ableton and then if not revert to direct monitoring. One thing I didn't realise is if the audio track you are recording the midi has monitoring on auto it will override the driver error compensation which will result in delayed audio capture..

[Stromkraft]

Thanks, I'm going to have one last go working with monitoring inside Ableton and then if not revert to direct monitoring. One thing I didn't realise is if the audio track you are recording the midi has monitoring on auto it will override the driver error compensation which will result in delayed audio capture..

Not as such. The driver compensation is active, but Live assumes with "auto" you want what you hear when recording should sound the same when playing back. It's for live performances, not recording sequencers.

Anyway, using audio recording with monitor set to "off" can be a very useful method.

[riddor74]

Thanks, I'm going to have one last go working with monitoring inside Ableton and then if not revert to direct monitoring. One thing I didn't realise is if the audio track you are recording the midi has monitoring on auto it will override the driver error compensation which will result in delayed audio capture..

Not as such. The driver compensation is active, but Live assumes with "auto" you want what you hear when recording should sound the same when playing back. It's for live performances, not recording sequencers.

Anyway, using audio recording with monitor set to "off" can be a very useful method.

Ah ok, I presumed driver error comp did affect recorded audio as the test you complete to establish the rate amount focuses on recorded audio in to out.

Thanks for all help so far looking to tackle this for once and all tomorrow.

[riddor74]

So the best bet is reduced latency when monitoring and use the individually sliders within the external inst and effect plugs?

If I directly monitored via total mix which is possible, would that mean than all latency sliders in the external inst plugs are left as the direct monitor would be correct? if this was the case when reverting to internal monitoring within Ableton once recorded would the audio be correctly aligned (i.e. it sounded right via direct monitoring so would be once recorded?)

I'd say so yes, barring the fact that each setup is somewhat different. Direct monitoring in TotalMix or in an external mixer is what I use. For audio recordings in Live then I set monitor to "off". In practice for me I only have to adjust the hardware latency slider for external synced sequencers or arpeggiators (the latter usually can be offset on the synth) and way more seldom for MIDI notes or CC. Typically I record synths at 96kHz and a 128-256 samples buffer setting.

What I hear in monitor is what plays back, but you need to watch out for where in the played line you start recording. The timing may be shifted if you later can't start the clip post-recording so that your recorded playing happens at the intended time. If this happens the start point of the clip may need adjusting and possibly the loop as well.

So just to check if you direct monitor via Total Mix or mixer you also have your midi channel monitor switched to off? as with audio when recording that midi part in is also monitoring off?

[Stromkraft]

So the best bet is reduced latency when monitoring and use the individually sliders within the external inst and effect plugs?

If I directly monitored via total mix which is possible, would that mean than all latency sliders in the external inst plugs are left as the direct monitor would be correct? if this was the case when reverting to internal monitoring within Ableton once recorded would the audio be correctly aligned (i.e. it sounded right via direct monitoring so would be once recorded?)

I'd say so yes, barring the fact that each setup is somewhat different. Direct monitoring in TotalMix or in an external mixer is what I use. For audio recordings in Live then I set monitor to "off". In practice for me I only have to adjust the hardware latency slider for external synced sequencers or arpeggiators (the latter usually can be offset on the synth) and way more seldom for MIDI notes or CC. Typically I record synths at 96kHz and a 128-256 samples buffer setting.

What I hear in monitor is what plays back, but you need to watch out for where in the played line you start recording. The timing may be shifted if you later can't start the clip post-recording so that your recorded playing happens at the intended time. If this happens the start point of the clip may need adjusting and possibly the loop as well.

So just to check if you direct monitor via Total Mix or mixer you also have your midi channel monitor switched to off? as with audio when recording that midi part in is also monitoring off?

I haven't done this a lot with MIDI tracks in Live going to external instruments, but I have no reason to believe that using an External Instrument in a MIDI track with monitor set to "on" would in any way affect an audio track set to the same audio inputs as External Instrument in the MIDI track and with monitor set to "off".

These two may not be in perfect timing when playing back the recorded audio though. I never noticed anything myself, however and I'm pretty sensitive to timing errors.

My main use for setting monitor to "off" in audio tracks is when the timing of the playing itself isn't affected by the experienced latency. That would include external sequencers, but I suppose there must be a reason why I never use this for clips playing these instrument I record to another audio track.

Maybe you should do your own tests?