Are you aware of this bug?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
diegux
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:16 pm

Are you aware of this bug?

Post by diegux » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:33 pm

I can reproduce it 100% of the times.

1-Set up a midi instrument track.
2-Route it's output to an audio track
3-Record both and start playing. They are of course, in perfect sync.
4-Tap tempo while you are playing.
5- It will still sound fine, but when you stop recording both tracks will be out of sync. The audio track is right but the midi track is drifting.

At least when using Push 2, If you tap tempo while recording, midi information will record wrong. BIG PROBLEM

This is not good for recording live performances, and sharing them with other musicians. According to ableton support, this is a bug and no one has ever noticed before. They don't know if it will have priority. If you care about this please let them know.


Thanks, best. And sorry about my English.

arretx
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by arretx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:07 pm

Unless tempo is being recorded as automation and the resulting audio recording is warped, the audio will adhere to real time while the midi notes follow the playback tempo, no?
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diegux
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:16 pm

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by diegux » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:13 pm

When you tap the tempo while recording, these changes are recorded in the tempo track, which makes total sense.

The midi clips that are recorded when the tempo is tapped on the fly are out of sync with real time. They are off, they are wrong...

arretx
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by arretx » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:42 pm

Help me understand under what circumstance you would actually find yourself recording midi input at the same time you're recording the tempo automation.

I would think that you would just record the midi, then add the automation for the tempo after.

What happens if you record the midi track and the audio track together, then go back and record the automation separately. Same problem?
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[jur]
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Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by [jur] » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:23 am

That maybe is a stupid question, but did you try recording the midi out of your mid track to an other midi track to see what happen?
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arretx
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by arretx » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:10 am

Your original post indicated you were recording a midi track to an audio track. Are you recording a midi track to a midi track routing the midi out from one to the input of the other or are you recording the audio output of the midi track to an audio track?
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Stromkraft
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Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:15 pm

diegux wrote:When you tap the tempo while recording, these changes are recorded in the tempo track, which makes total sense.

The midi clips that are recorded when the tempo is tapped on the fly are out of sync with real time. They are off, they are wrong...
Monitor is set to what on these two tracks? Why do you consider the audio track as being correct?

If you don't record any audio, only MIDI, then does it still sound wonky to you?
Make some music!

diegux
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:16 pm

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by diegux » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:39 pm

Ok, this is my particular workflow:

I have a band, we improvise and I play electronic drums that are MIDI connected to Live.

All the band plugs into that computer, so we just give a stereo out to the sound guys when we do gigs. Also, we record everything we play in this multitrack session.
I like tapping tempo on the fly while we play because I set up the Delays so they are in tempo with what we are playing (we improvise)
I always record a track of the midi I play, and also route this to an audio track so I have a duplicate signal. I also record all the other instruments as audio tracks.

The midi track and the audio track of my drums should be exactly the same, and it is while I am not tapping the tempo. When the tempo changes, MIDI timing is wrongly recorded. I know the audio is fine because it is still in sync with the other instruments. MIDI track drifts when there are tempo map changes.

When tapping tempo while recording, MIDI notes will not be in time.

This is a bug, it was confirmed by Ableton and to me, it is a problem.


If you do care, let them know.

Thanks.

arretx
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by arretx » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:18 pm

Ahh...I see. Now it makes sense.

I'll up vote that as a bug report too.

Now, to help me understand more.

When you are improvising, and the tempo of the song is changing, is the change being led by you (drummer) or are you following everyone else's lead, or is it just an organic process that happens between everyone whereby a given song might slow down to a crawl and then pick back up...?

Perhaps the problem stems from an interpolation issue between tap timing. Since Ableton is reading the difference in change between taps as a reduction in tempo over time, but doesn't know what the next tap timing is going to be, it makes errors in placing midi notes.

I wonder if this is really a bug, or if there's an extremely complicated dynamic algorithm that needs to be considered while recording unexpected timing changes such that it's not possible to accomplish.
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Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:40 pm

diegux wrote:Ok, this is my particular workflow:

I have a band, we improvise and I play electronic drums that are MIDI connected to Live.

All the band plugs into that computer, so we just give a stereo out to the sound guys when we do gigs. Also, we record everything we play in this multitrack session.
I like tapping tempo on the fly while we play because I set up the Delays so they are in tempo with what we are playing (we improvise)
I always record a track of the midi I play, and also route this to an audio track so I have a duplicate signal. I also record all the other instruments as audio tracks.

The midi track and the audio track of my drums should be exactly the same, and it is while I am not tapping the tempo. When the tempo changes, MIDI timing is wrongly recorded. I know the audio is fine because it is still in sync with the other instruments. MIDI track drifts when there are tempo map changes.

When tapping tempo while recording, MIDI notes will not be in time.

This is a bug, it was confirmed by Ableton and to me, it is a problem.


If you do care, let them know.
Thanks for elaborating. I do care and I also use a MIDI drummer. So far we've used a click, but we have also done live recordings where I used the tap function of my MIDI controller. I never recorded both audio and MIDI though, so this hasn't come up.

We've also looked into trying Beatseeker or similar, but so far haven't had the right session for setting this up. We did try Group Humanizer once but found the live performance input suffering from hideous latency issues at a 32 samples buffer, so I just use that for my own tracks when I need another kind of interplay.
Make some music!

diegux
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:16 pm

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by diegux » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Yes, that is probably the case. When tapping the tempo live doesn't know when will be the next tap. But there should be a workaround since this is possible in other DAWS. At the end of the take, notes are recorded in a certain place in time and there is where they should be. If not, you are relying in a feature that is wrongly implemented.

We play without click, but if at any particular time I want to use a delay, I just tap the tempo. I don't care if notes are not recorded in a proper musical bar or beat, I just need the timing to be right.

Thanks for your thoughts, best!

arretx
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by arretx » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:00 pm

If you turn off quantization on the midi track that's being recorded and removed the resolution on the bars from the clip's timeline (off) does the MIDI recorded line up with the real-time recording?
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Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:06 pm

diegux wrote:Yes, that is probably the case. When tapping the tempo live doesn't know when will be the next tap. But there should be a workaround since this is possible in other DAWS. At the end of the take, notes are recorded in a certain place in time and there is where they should be. If not, you are relying in a feature that is wrongly implemented.
You make it sound like you're unfamiliar with what recording with monitor "off" and "on" means for timing in Live. "notes are recorded in a certain place in time and there is where they should be" doesn't cut it because there is always some latency you need to cater for and Live makes some opinionated and sensible, IMHO, decisions about this.

Simplified but I think these are more or less true rules of thumb:
If you want to record when events happen (are played) use monitor set to "off"
If you want to record when events are heard (trough Live) set monitor to "on". This is in the manual.
Make some music!

diegux
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:16 pm

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by diegux » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Stormkraft , I don't get what you are saying.

I am working at 96 samples latency (really low).
All the tracks are in auto monitoring.
Audio timing is perfect.
Midi timing is wrong.
Midi timing is perfect if tempo is not tapped.
The drift between audio and Midi is much more than 96 samples.

Am I loosing my mind?

No...it is a bug

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Are you aware of this bug?

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:14 pm

diegux wrote:Stormkraft , I don't get what you are saying.
Obviously. I'm not addressing this bug of yours. I'm addressing your expectations. If you actually do not know that monitor settings affect timing, your expectations are not in tune with how Live actually works in this regard nor how how people play in relation to latency. This is all in the manual.

That you have low latency may work fine for the playing, but that doesn't change how Live works.
Make some music!

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