Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Stromkraft
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Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:18 am

“As much as I love the Ableton stock plugins, I do think there’s something missing from their version of Glue. Obviously, I work with Ableton, but I tend to use the old, pre-Ableton version. To my ears, it seems to have a bit more flexibility, a bit more control, and a bit more oomph.”
-- DJ Krafty Kuts on "Cytomic The Glue" Computer Music, August 2017 on page 16.

And I've been telling myself they are the same and apparently I'm not as fond of The Glue device as I thought I'd be. I was on the verge of getting Cytomic The Glue in 2013 and as I got it with Live I never investigated this. Instead I use about 25 other compressors/Limiters with a handful in each project.

Tell me Mr Krafty Kuts has been smoking something weird please. Why could it be I don't like Glue as much as expected? I just acquired a different taste with time? Or could this be the reason? Maybe I'm using it in a non beneficial way? Most tracks as well as busses are about -18dBFS RMS, sometimes a little less.

I use the Live Glue device on returns mostly as it is. It's all-right for most tasks but other compressors somehow sound better even when more transparent.

These are the ones I use more often currently in no particular order and typically then prefer to The Glue in Live:
  • Waves C1 (transparent with great sidechain)
  • Waves C4 (On unwieldy instruments and on the Master as mild corrective glue)
  • TDR Kotelnikov (Master channel)
  • Live Compressor (Instruments and returns)
  • Waves VComp (Busses, sidechained tracks and Bass)
  • Waves Puigchild 670 (vocals and shiny synths) is somehow unhearable even when molding everything
  • Audio Damage Rough Rider (Returns and percussion mostly)
  • Not a compressor per se but adding mix glue is Waves NLS (all tracks and busses)
Any one could be used for Parallel Compression as well.

What are your thoughts on this?
Last edited by Stromkraft on Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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miyaru
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by miyaru » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:18 pm

I don't know the old Glue, I com from Cubase - which I used for more then 20 yrs. I find the Live Glue souning quiet good though. There are third party plugs that sound better like a lot of the waves stuff, but hey, they have a pricetag!

I do believe it is noticable that one sounds beter then the other - in this case the old Glue and the Live one.

But in a mix, with a lot going on it gets harder to tell in the end. I would not bother to much about it......
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Stromkraft
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:33 pm

miyaru wrote: But in a mix, with a lot going on it gets harder to tell in the end. I would not bother to much about it......
I strongly disagree. It's precisely in a mixdown where the nuances of different compressors show their character and qualities. Some will be closer to each other of course, but some others will just stand out in some contexts. I view compressors as tone colors and shapers above the purely dynamic aspect.

I have some themed variations of an audio chain rack with all my compressors set to similar settings that means I can switch very quickly in order to choose which device which one to use in a context. This is especially useful for Parallel Compression.
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miyaru
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by miyaru » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:33 pm

I meant the difference between the "old" Glue and the "new" Glue. Would the difference be so big?
Greetings from Miyaru.

Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Saffire Pro40, Live Suit 10, Push2, Reason Suite 11, Presonus Eris E8, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Korg R3, NI Massive, Rob Papen's Predator 2, Sonarworks Reference 4 and Scaler.

timday
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by timday » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:07 pm

Time for a null test.

Stromkraft
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:12 pm

miyaru wrote:I meant the difference between the "old" Glue and the "new" Glue. Would the difference be so big?
Well, in the article Krafty Kuts feel the difference is noteworthy, but I don't have an opinion of my own as I tried the original for just a few weeks 4 years ago. I have noticed I seldom turn to Glue (from Live), even though I do like it occasionally.

I don't like Glue very much for Instrument compression, but I have used it for non bass side-chaining and occasionally as a master buss compressor, where it does add some nice presence. However, Waves C4 with gentle settings glue more convincingly, especially combined with NLS. Likewise with Kotelnikov

Glue is a little off for the drum buss to me, so I've replaced it there. It's certainly passable, but I'm not fully convinced by the current operation. Whether I would be by the original Cytomic Glue, that do have some unique features, that I've forgot at the moment, remains to be heard.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 pm

timday wrote:Time for a null test.
Certainly. There is a Glue demo. However I just got Waves C6 (for $12. Thanks link supporters!), so that's my current focus.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:33 am

steko wrote:1.
The Lounge
Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production

:arrow: Music and Audio Production
Yes, but this started about an article and an artist more than Music Production per se. I wasn't sure what direction the discussion would take. Therefore I thought it was a better fit in The Lounge.
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steko
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by steko » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:00 am

8)
Rahad Jackson wrote:My Awesome Mix Tape #6

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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by [jur] » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:54 am

(topic moved) :wink:
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steko
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by steko » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:25 pm

:x
Rahad Jackson wrote:My Awesome Mix Tape #6

Stromkraft
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:32 pm

'The "Glue Compressor" device is identical to the plugin version of The Glue and will null perfectly with it'
Andy Cytomic in Cytomic & The Glue Bus Compressor Effect Plugin
(Gearslutz discussion 2012)

Andy Cytomic's illustrating responses in this discussion:
'The Glue in Live 9 uses the identical DSP in the core algorithm as the plugin version. There are a few minor differences:

1) The Live 9 device stops processing on silence to save CPU, I'll be adding this to the full version in the near future, but currently The Glue will still use CPU
2) The Live 9 device only supports oversampling modes of "Off" and "x2", and this selection is fixed, you can't pick one for render and one for realtime like the regular plugin version. I am trying to encourage Ableton to support more in this regard in the future, but this will most likely take some time.
3) The sidechain filter on the plugin version is a very gentle -6 dB high pass, the Ableton version supports a full EQ8 single section, which is more powerful in some ways, but the catch is there is a minimum slope it -12 dB for the high pass. I deliberately made the plugin version very gentle since I prefer de-emphasising the lows rather than a harder cut. I will hopefully get Ableton to add -6 dB high pass and low pass to the sidechain filter as well as EQ8.

So in summary if you don't use the oversampling, or the sidechain high pass, and you always pass audio to the plugin then they are identical.
--Andy Cytomic in context in the same discussion.
'I believe you can hear a difference! Both The Glue and the Glue Compressor device in Live use an identical core algorithm and code, so if they have the same settings they will null with each other (apart from around -120 dB of thermal hiss), so it's most likely you don't have the knobs set to the same values.

As suggested by mpod (well picked up there!) I recommend first of all checking the Range knob is set to the same value, the Live version goes up to 70 dB when set to the maximum clockwise value, but The Glue goes up to -79 dB then clicks into "Full" mode when at the maximum clockwise position. Try setting the Range knob in the plugin version to exactly the same numeric value (except negative) you have it set in the Live version and you will most likely get the same result. You can enter exact values in The Glue by double clicking on the knob and typing in "-70", and by clicking on the Live number field and then typing. I actually like the values being positive like in the Live one, so I'll change that in an update.

If that doesn't fix things then the only remaining possibilities for slight tonal variations are the sidechain filters (The Glue has a 1 pole filter and the Live device a 2 pole or more filter), or use of oversampling, but I am guessing it's the Range knob.

If you like the Range knob defaulted to 70 dB (-70 dB)you can save a preset called "Default" in the root of the preset folder and every new instance of The Glue will load with that preset.'
--Andy Cytomic in context if the same discussion.
'The full plugin version has more oversampling options, but otherwise has identical signal processing algorithms for the compressor. The Live device has one of their EQ sections to optionally filter the sidechain signal, the plugin version has a one pole high pass filter only, but you can add any EQ you want to process the signal before sending to the sidechain and you get the same thing.
--Andy Cytomic in context in the same discussion.
'The core DSP is the same, but I did update and improve the oversampling filters. I also made x2 for Realtime and x8 for Render the default settings, so it could just be that. These oversampling rates are multipliers of 44.1/48, and if your project is at an equal or higher rate they won't do anything.
--Andy Cytomic in context in the same discussion.
'Originally Posted by ohmicide:
Unbelievable. I would kill for HD versions of those filters and of The Glue. Ableton needs to get their sh!t together.
'I understand that they need to keep the CPU usage down since people like to be able to run lots of devices.

As a workaround I have been pushing for them to support "HD on render", since it's already an offline situation so the extra CPU won't matter, hopefully in the future they'll implement this. I'm also pushing for more advanced oversampling support, in particular higher rates of oversampling on render, and support for oversampling on bounce / export, as well as oversampling at the rack level. If you're keen for any such features then please email them. If lots of customers would like it then it's more likely to get done.'
--Andy Cytomic in context in the same discussion

Thanks to @Steko for original links. I changed them into in context of the discussion.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:39 pm

What I hear is that "the glues typically null, but if you export with x8 oversampling you might enjoy even better detail". Fair?

I also hear a disturbing trend that Ableton ignores excellent improvement suggestions from Andy.
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Angstrom
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Re: Krafty Kuts thinks "The Glue" plug-in beats the Glue in Live

Post by Angstrom » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:27 pm

Stromkraft wrote:What I hear is that "the glues typically null, but if you export with x8 oversampling you might enjoy even better detail". Fair?

I also hear a disturbing trend that Ableton ignores excellent improvement suggestions from Andy.
But thats not what he said. He says he's pushing for it and hopes to see it.

I think you have worked in large organisations on software projects, usually it goes like this: I have a great suggestion "A". Good lets consider it. There are underlying framework issues due to be fixed which will make "A" eassier to achieve, the Framework V3 will incorporate these updates, that update is waiting on the test outcomes from Dept Z. Etc etc. Our current timeline is 3 months, but that is reliant on positive outcomes. Etc etc.

"Ignore" very very rarely happens. And he did not use that word. So I assume "its been fed into the cautious and labyrynthine corporate dev process, and I hope one day soon it emerges but the priorities are determined by so many factors it's not my call, but I often bring it up" is a more accurate interpretation.

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