Doubling Tracks (Duplicate versus AudioFxRack)

[charlybeck]

There seems to be a big mythos of whats the difference between doubling a track either by routing, by audiofx rack or by really doubling the track containing the wav file.

I checked the difference between real doubling and audio effect rack doubling:
- exported both, inverted one of the files and mixed them down again. so i receive a noise thats the difference between both files and it is at ~ minus 111db. So not very loud. You can also normalize such a file to make the noise audible.

I wonder wether this little noise makes the difference, but i heard it often from different guys to prefer the track doubling. Though i can not prove it makes a big difference. From technical point of view.

OFten when checking such things i make a blind test: I compare both files by hearing them without knowing which is which and the result in this case was, that actually the file created by dublicating the track sounded better than the audiofxrack doubling.

Do you have any experience with that? What does it sound like in other daws?

[jestermgee]

What are you on about???

Sounds like you're spending a whole lot of time and effort investigating something that has almost no real effect within a mix.

People really do like to get caught up on the slightest little things

[Stromkraft]

There seems to be a big mythos

What's that? I have no idea what you want here, but I use all of these:

• Parallel Compression
• Vari-Speed delay (Doable with standard tools in Suite or with a LFO plug-in in Standard)
• One short delay left and another on the right with a somewhat different time.

[Stromkraft]

Well, a lot of the time people simply don't know about how racks work and/or copy the solutions from other 'traditional' DAWs. Just yesterday I discussed this with a guy over at Facebook group, that wanted to split audio from VST instrument into low / mid+high frequencies and pan them differently (mono the lows, widen the mid+high). This is a perfect user-case for using racks, but he insisted on first creating a copy of the track, then on sending the audio to 2nd track by internal routing, then - when I convinced him he should use the FX rack - to at least do the panning with some 3rd party plugin, instead of Utility :)

People just don't RTFM :)

There are some great reasons to use his model. There are no rules, only results.

[Stromkraft]

Which one? With doubling/routing or FX Rack? I'm sure I could come up with some examples where the former is better than the latter, but for this particular need it was just easier to use FX Rack.

While racks are great sometimes having each sound in its own track give possibilities you don't have in the rack. Racks are racks, not a solution to every problem.

[charlybeck]

Well some of you guys miss the point. I don't say who told me and who they work for but it seems some good guys insist that doubling tracks is better.

I described i was critical on my own and technically there is not much difference but i observed that i prefer the "real" duplicate on my own, although there are technically only slightly difference
it sounds more warm, full and naturally.

I will not punish you to glory, it's up to anyone to produce as he wants. I just wanted to know wether some of you know about this issue.

[charlybeck]

Well, a lot of the time people simply don't know about how racks work and/or copy the solutions from other 'traditional' DAWs. Just yesterday I discussed this with a guy over at Facebook group, that wanted to split audio from VST instrument into low / mid+high frequencies and pan them differently (mono the lows, widen the mid+high). This is a perfect user-case for using racks, but he insisted on first creating a copy of the track, then on sending the audio to 2nd track by internal routing, then - when I convinced him he should use the FX rack - to at least do the panning with some 3rd party plugin, instead of Utility

People just don't RTFM

There are some great reasons to use his model. There are no rules, only results.

Which one? With doubling/routing or FX Rack? I'm sure I could come up with some examples where the former is better than the latter, but for this particular need it was just easier to use FX Rack.

Well... thats a good point. if you do that using non-phase linear plugins (and the most aside of linear phase eqs and compressors are not phase linear) you will end up in a sub optimal sound. this issue i was pointing on goes one step further. i'm sure the fucking manual wont state why and that the mixer inside the audio effect rack sounds different than the mixer in the main section. i even heard from more than one a guy he never uses the dry/wet function, instead they double the tracks.

btw--- do i have an "i'm an ashole" sign on my forehead? or why are some guys here pissed off me asking a simple question?

[Tarekith]

I think maybe just your original post wasn't worded very clearly, it was a little hard to figure out what you were asking or if you were asking anythin specific at all.

[charlybeck]

I think maybe just your original post wasn't worded very clearly, it was a little hard to figure out what you were asking or if you were asking anythin specific at all.

Well i'm sorry. I added that poll. My question was "Which way of doubling tracks/signals do you prefer from quality point of view". In my entry post i described how i compared that.

For my ears the duplicated track sounded better, although i found only very little difference from technical point of view.

Still i'm not sure how to treat that result in my mixes because doubling by routing or fx rack is much more handy.

[charlybeck]

k... shame uppon me. i fooled myself. the noise i found was simple dithering noise. it seems i now forgot 3 times to switch off the dithering.

without dithering there is definitely bit-exactly the same result between track duplication and audio effect rack.

so it seems it is a myth, that there is a difference... at least in ableton live...

[jestermgee]

Glad I didn't waste time trying to understand this one.

[charlybeck]

Glad I didn't waste time trying to understand this one.

Well for me it was good because lot of guys seem to believe that there is a difference.

And everytime some "big guy" told me i got confused because i couldnt believe. now i prooved it, it's nonsense... at least in the latest ableton version..

[Stromkraft]

now i prooved it, it's nonsense...

That's the ticket!