why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

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broose masterwerk
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 am

why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by broose masterwerk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:14 am

Hi Guys

why do i get a dopplereffect when i send my kick to a parallelcompressionRETURNchannel and than to the Drumbus!???

my routings are simple as it gets...

-Kickchannel (routed direct to the drumbus)
-sametime the kick is send (allmost full send amount) to a Parallelcompressionreturnchannel
-this returnchannel is routed than to the Drumbus again

i have almost 56ms delay of those kicks when they meet in the drumbus again... what could be wrong with my routings or settings?
if i route the Returnchannel to Masterchannel and not to the drumbus everthing seems fine..

why do i get a doppler or delay if i route it to the drumbus again???

(i have 4 compressors in sum ----->
-2 compressors are on the kickcchannel, one is for peaktaming and one is for shaping
-1 compressor is on the paralellchannel for newyorkcompression
-1 compressor is on the drumbus for glueing

thanx for your time

2pauluzz2
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by 2pauluzz2 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:30 am

This had me baffled some time ago as well. I found and saved this explanation in Evernote:
Ableton calculates delays from left to right. Getting to the sends last. If you then route the audio from the sends back into the project they will forever be late. And that's where you get the delay from.
I stopped using sends in Live for this very reason. Instead I use racks with 2 channels one wet and one dry and blend it using the channel volumes.
It's not really a bug. But rather a limitation in the way Live implemented PDC. The thing is that they allow for complex routing , but once you become a power user you quickly find these kind of limitations, and it sucks.
I too simply stopped using send/returns altogether.
"Paul" is fine too.

broose masterwerk
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 am

Re: why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by broose masterwerk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:44 am

2pauluzz2 wrote:This had me baffled some time ago as well. I found and saved this explanation in Evernote:
Ableton calculates delays from left to right. Getting to the sends last. If you then route the audio from the sends back into the project they will forever be late. And that's where you get the delay from.
I stopped using sends in Live for this very reason. Instead I use racks with 2 channels one wet and one dry and blend it using the channel volumes.
It's not really a bug. But rather a limitation in the way Live implemented PDC. The thing is that they allow for complex routing , but once you become a power user you quickly find these kind of limitations, and it sucks.
I too simply stopped using send/returns altogether.

U really helped me alot... i was looking for my mistakes over and over again...

i was bored of duplicating tracks to newyork it and the returnchannel are allways sticking on place so i thought its perfect to have something thats allways on the same place! Ableton should really get it fixed or should gave me channel that i can allways stick to the end of my tracks that it wont scroll up or down when scrolling my list!

<edit> now i have the same problem again, why i wanted to use a return track was to have two seperate same kicks going into the drumbus... now i have to duplicate a kicktrack again... argggh thats messy! Do i have got the chance to route one Kicktrack into the drumbus and into a parallelbus without duplicating a track??

Thank you again

2pauluzz2
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:34 pm

Re: why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by 2pauluzz2 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:22 pm

I'm not sure what your setup looks like exactly, but are you familiar with grouping audio effect racks? This video explains how to create dry/wet channels inside a track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYQiMtx9tXk
That's how I do my parallel processing.
"Paul" is fine too.

scheffkoch
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by scheffkoch » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:38 pm

...have you switched off the send (to the compressor) on the drumbus?...afaik there is a delay because otherwise you could create a feedbackloop (because the send from the drumbus goes to the compressor, then again to the drumbus and so on...)...
macbook pro late 2016, osx 10.13.6, rme multiface via sonnet thunderbolt expresscard adapter + thunderbolt to usb-c adapter, ableton live 10.0.1, push 2, komplete 9, maschine 2.7.6, touchable

broose masterwerk
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 am

Re: why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by broose masterwerk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:29 pm

scheffkoch wrote:...have you switched off the send (to the compressor) on the drumbus?...afaik there is a delay because otherwise you could create a feedbackloop (because the send from the drumbus goes to the compressor, then again to the drumbus and so on...)...

a tryd to switch of the return channel... but my parallelcompression is just a little bit audible its not getting me the effect i wished to get!

thank you guys for your replys

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: why dopplereffekt when parallelreturn and to drumbus

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:53 pm

broose masterwerk wrote:
scheffkoch wrote:...have you switched off the send (to the compressor) on the drumbus?...afaik there is a delay because otherwise you could create a feedbackloop (because the send from the drumbus goes to the compressor, then again to the drumbus and so on...)...

a tryd to switch of the return channel... but my parallelcompression is just a little bit audible its not getting me the effect i wished to get!

thank you guys for your replys

This is easily solved as scheffkoch suggests. Why not do what is suggested and turn off the sends back to the return on the track in question? Look here for when I discovered this solution in setting up a drum bus??.
Make some music!

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