Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
fishmonkey
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:57 am

they gave a very simplified reasoning, that is true. but that is probably because most people would not understand the technicalities involved.

realistically, if a plugin does not have a 64-bit version by now, it is most likely no longer supported by the developer.
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Coupe70
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Mainz / Germany
Contact:

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Coupe70 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:18 am

fishmonkey wrote:they gave a very simplified reasoning, that is true. but that is probably because most people would not understand the technicalities involved.
They didn't give simplified reasons, they gave different and stupid reasons.
"Our small car is too small and slow for SOME of our customers, so we discontinue it for ALL customers."
Phongemeinschaft (Live-ElectroJazz / NuJazz)
Homepage - youtube - Like! :-)
Live 9 (32Bit), HP DV7, i5 2,53GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win7 (64Bit)

stringtapper
Posts: 6271
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by stringtapper » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:34 am

Coupe70 wrote:Stromkraft, I am not happy I HAVE TO switch to 64 bit version
You don't HAVE TO do anything. I know people who still keep a PPC Mac around just to run OS 9 so that they can use obsolete software.
Unsound Designer

fishmonkey
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:34 am

Coupe70 wrote:
fishmonkey wrote:they gave a very simplified reasoning, that is true. but that is probably because most people would not understand the technicalities involved.
They didn't give simplified reasons, they gave different and stupid reasons.
"Our small car is too small and slow for SOME of our customers, so we discontinue it for ALL customers."
that is a poor analogy, but if you want to go with the car analogy:

"The lower performance and handling of our small car causes a significant number of complaints and crashes on the autobahns, requiring the attention of our support paramedics. Since there are now only disadvantages for us as a company in continuing to develop and support that outdated model, we are choosing to no longer do so."
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:04 am

fishmonkey wrote:
Coupe70 wrote:
fishmonkey wrote:they gave a very simplified reasoning, that is true. but that is probably because most people would not understand the technicalities involved.
They didn't give simplified reasons, they gave different and stupid reasons.
"Our small car is too small and slow for SOME of our customers, so we discontinue it for ALL customers."
that is a poor analogy, but if you want to go with the car analogy:

"The lower performance and handling of our small car causes a significant number of complaints and crashes on the autobahns, requiring the attention of our support paramedics. Since there are now only disadvantages for us as a company in continuing to develop and support that outdated model, we are choosing to no longer do so."
I think also that, maybe, we could cherish the fact that Ableton kept 32bit around for so long as they did.

I don't know the situation with other DAWs though. How many are available in 32bit version still on Windows and on macOS? Assuming all are available in 64bit versions.
Make some music!

fishmonkey
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by fishmonkey » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:30 am

Stromkraft wrote: I don't know the situation with other DAWs though. How many are available in 32bit version still on Windows and on macOS? Assuming all are available in 64bit versions.
AFAIK the current versions of Cubase, Nuendo, Pro Tools, and Logic Pro X are all 64-bit only. i think Digital Performer and Studio One still have 32-bit versions...
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Coupe70
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Mainz / Germany
Contact:

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Coupe70 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:03 am

Again, in case I wasn't clear enough:
I am not upset by the decision. I am upset by the reason they give.
fishmonkey has the true reason:
fishmonkey wrote:Since there are now only disadvantages FOR US as a company in continuing to develop and support that outdated model, we are choosing to no longer do so."
But what Ableton say is "It is better for YOU, that's why we stop it."
But that is not the true reason. And not better for me.
I am fine with 32 bit version and switching to 64 will cause work, costs and possible trouble for me.
And stringtapper, I HAVE TO switch to 64 bit or I will be suspended from bugfixes and updates.
Phongemeinschaft (Live-ElectroJazz / NuJazz)
Homepage - youtube - Like! :-)
Live 9 (32Bit), HP DV7, i5 2,53GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win7 (64Bit)

spanktron
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:17 pm

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by spanktron » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:31 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
Coupe70 wrote:Ok, I have one of these bullshit detectors and it just went off.
You need a reset of that detector I think. Or try to attain some deep developer knowledge. If you had some already then you'd likely know that there are additional memory registers in x64 mode. The performance boost of this may not be that large, but in real time applications like music production, everything counts.

While I don't know if 32bit Live actually uses much other code than the 64bit version — compilation rendering different binaries — I'd think that in 2017 there are now 64bit only tools, like code libraries and developer tools functions, that makes the price for keeping 32bit support much higher as you'd have to maintain two code bases and sync functions between them. This may be one reason why some developers are abandoning 32bit at this point.

Would it be worth working hard to keep 32bit support or building a native bridge to support old software plug-ins that may not be compatible with the current and future OSes, when 64bit only means you can give users better performance and unique functionalities for less work? I think it's not. Nothing is stopping anyone from keeping old 32bit around if they choose. There are bridge solutions and old machines for a reason.

Here's an article from 2009 (!): "From 32-Bit to 64-Bit: Why Software Development Is Lagging Hardware Improvements", talking about the situation then. We have moved way beyond that now in late 2017.

My 3 cents interference. I bought the 32 Lives bridger. Works perfectly and i can use all my 32 bit plugins i wanted to keep. Best money i spend last year

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:06 am

Coupe70 wrote:I am upset by the reason they give.
fishmonkey has the true reason:
fishmonkey wrote:Since there are now only disadvantages FOR US as a company in continuing to develop and support that outdated model, we are choosing to no longer do so."
But what Ableton say is "It is better for YOU, that's why we stop it."
But that is not the true reason.
But this is indeed better for "you, the users". You're only one individual. Ableton doesn't make software for you personally, but for all users. We're a collective and as one we're collectively better off with Ableton abandoning 32bit at this point. It had to happen at some point.

Also, you're not correct you have to upgrade. Get a bigger SSD and install two systems, reboot for 32-bit music sessions.
Make some music!

Coupe70
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Mainz / Germany
Contact:

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Coupe70 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:56 am

Stromkraft wrote: you're not correct you have to upgrade. Get a bigger SSD and install two systems, reboot for 32-bit music sessions.
I DO have to upgrade or I won't get bugfixes and other updates anymore, even in the
still ongoing Live 9 lifecycle I paid for. So staying with preferred 32 bit version
is no option, because it won't be up to date anymore.
Stromkraft wrote: But this is indeed better for "you, the users". You're only one individual. Ableton doesn't make software for you personally, but for all users.
They state it is to get rid of the "out-of-memory"-crashes.
People were already free to switch to 64 bit if they had this problem.
All others are now forced to invest time and money because of a problem they don't have.
I can't see the benefit for the community in what Ableton says here...
Phongemeinschaft (Live-ElectroJazz / NuJazz)
Homepage - youtube - Like! :-)
Live 9 (32Bit), HP DV7, i5 2,53GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win7 (64Bit)

fishmonkey
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:30 am

going around in circles here. i think pretty much everyone understands by now that your personal preference is to continue using Live 32-bit.

the reality is that for very good reasons the day when no DAWs natively support 32-bit plugins is drawing closer.

you might point to Bitwig here, however their method of sandboxing plugins comes with added complexity under the hood and is resource-hungry, which is presumably why other 64-bit DAWs do not use a similar technique.
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

login
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by login » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:32 pm

Coupe70 wrote:Stromkraft, I am not happy I HAVE TO switch to 64 bit version (especially during a still ongoing
product lifecycle of Live 9), but even though it will give me no advantage and will only cause
possible trouble and costs for me, I absolutely understand and agree with the things you mentioned.
What I call bullshit and strongly counter are the reasons Ableton give in the official statement.

How much more time do you think Ableton should have supported the 32 bit version?

It was not going to last forever, other DAWs had already dropped support, at some point users have to realize that software moves forward and some stuff fails behind.

login
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by login » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:37 pm

In fact I think I would direct my anger at plugin developers being so slow to implement 64 bit versions, I had to wait for Waldorf to bring Largo to 64, only then I could switch to Live 64, obviously at some point I stopped using Largo.

Now I am very picky with third party developers, I make sure I choose the ones with good support: u-he, NI, Xfer. But I start feeling the need to cut back on plugins and rely less on them.

Coupe70
Posts: 1097
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Mainz / Germany
Contact:

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Coupe70 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:56 am

login wrote: How much more time do you think Ableton should have supported the 32 bit version?
As I said: Although it does not make me happy, there are good reasons to stop support.
I'd swallowed it already with the release of Live 9. Now I think the release of Live 10
would be a good moment, not during the lifecycle of Live 9.
I'd swallow it if they said "for economic reasons we decided not to put manpower and
money in it anymore". I'd swallow it if they said "percentage of 32 bit users dropped
to under x%, so we don't consider it relevant anymore".
But as mentioned they gave a reason which is simply not true.
Not just for me, but for anybody.
Phongemeinschaft (Live-ElectroJazz / NuJazz)
Homepage - youtube - Like! :-)
Live 9 (32Bit), HP DV7, i5 2,53GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win7 (64Bit)

Khazul
Posts: 3185
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Live 32-bit to be discontinued

Post by Khazul » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:38 pm

Makes sense - Ive long abandoned 32 bit only plugins and only install 64 live now.

TBH - I was actually a little surprised that Windows 10 had a 32 bit version.
I believe Apple are dropping 32 bit apps from next year and High Sierra will be their last 32 bit OS. I wouldnt be surprised if the next Windows was 64 bit only.

As for the reason - to stop OOM crashes... out of memory is out of memory with C++ RT - its probably still going to crash in 64 bit with insufficient physical memory (never had it happen on 64 bit, so not sure). The problem on 32 bit was app address space exceeded rather than out of physical memory.
Last edited by Khazul on Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing to see here - move along!

Post Reply