Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

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DemolitionColorScheme
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:11 pm

Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:53 pm

So, I've always used Live 8.04 with no issues whatsoever (at least, none that were crippling) and these past few days I've been trying to get 9.7 to run correctly, but besides having pops and crackles on 6ms latency set up in my ASIO panel and it being gone when set to 8ms, I'm experiencing these scary loud feedback bursts on some of my return channels:
Image
It seems to happen with time based effects, like verbs and delays. It started with Eventide Blackhole, but then I noticed it with other tools from SoundToys as well, for example. Disabling the plugin takes the burst away, but when I re-enable it, it comes back instantly.

I've never had this issue in Live 8 with the same project, but this makes 9 unusable.

Specs:
PreSonus FP10 (FirePod)(ASIO)
Windows 7 Pro 64bit
Live 32bit ('cause I haven't switched to 64bit plugins yet)
6GB RAM
i7 Dual Core @ 2.67GHz

DemolitionColorScheme
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:11 pm

Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:47 pm

Anyone? I can't seem to get this fixed. I first thought it might be some external plugins, but with just the Ableton verb on a return track, I get the same bursts.
I even got a new laptop and the same issue persists. I've tried lowering the input gain by adding a utility on the return track (maybe the signal was too hot - which I doubt, but still wanted to try it), didn't work either.

Currently working on Windows 10 as well instead of Windows 7.
Last edited by DemolitionColorScheme on Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tarekith
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by Tarekith » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:23 pm

Maybe a feedback loop with your effect sends?

DemolitionColorScheme
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:34 pm

Tarekith wrote:Maybe a feedback loop with your effect sends?
I sincerely doubt it, though. All of the return tracks are just routed to the master, that's it. I wouldn't see any possibility for a loop.

Tarekith
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by Tarekith » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:52 pm

Perhaps something like loop back is activated in your sound card software? Otherwise I have no idea what could cause this.

DemolitionColorScheme
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:18 pm

Tarekith wrote:Perhaps something like loop back is activated in your sound card software? Otherwise I have no idea what could cause this.
The FirePod software is very limited and doesn't have any options like that. Maybe it's a setting in Live 9 perhaps? Since Live 8 doesn't seem to do this. If so, is there anything in Live 9 I should pay attention to?

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:58 pm

DemolitionColorScheme wrote:I'm experiencing these scary loud feedback bursts on some of my return channels:
I assume you mean Live 9.7.5, correct? Suffice to say this is not normal. At all. I saw something like that with 9.2, or if it was 9.5, several years ago, but this was a visual meter problem that went away. i e no audio.

Do you have any audio track that is resampling perhaps? That sends to these returns? Look over your audio inputs and follow the signal.
What happens if you turn off all sends before this problem appear? Are there any potential input via monitor "in" somewhere? Armed tracks on the path to these effects? What about your audio settings? Can you turn off what you don't need?

I'm 100% convinced this is a setup problem. I've used Live 9 since release every day and never seen something like this (except what I described above). Up to 9.2 also on Windows.
Make some music!

DemolitionColorScheme
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:11 pm

Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:44 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
DemolitionColorScheme wrote:I'm experiencing these scary loud feedback bursts on some of my return channels:
I assume you mean Live 9.7.5, correct? Suffice to say this is not normal. At all. I saw something like that with 9.2, or if it was 9.5, several years ago, but this was a visual meter problem that went away. i e no audio.

Do you have any audio track that is resampling perhaps? That sends to these returns? Look over your audio inputs and follow the signal.
What happens if you turn off all sends before this problem appear? Are there any potential input via monitor "in" somewhere? Armed tracks on the path to these effects? What about your audio settings? Can you turn off what you don't need?

I'm 100% convinced this is a setup problem. I've used Live 9 since release every day and never seen something like this (except what I described above). Up to 9.2 also on Windows.
It's the current version of Live, yeah.
No audio tracks that are resampling.
I haven't tried turning off the sends itself, but have tried turning off the returns, which still resulted in feedback in the return tracks, but not towards the master.
No armed tracks and no inputs. When I'm done recording, I always turn off the inputs, not only on the tracks, but in the Preferences as well.
What do you mean exactly by 'audio settings'? Could you be a bit more specific?

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:26 pm

DemolitionColorScheme wrote: No armed tracks and no inputs. When I'm done recording, I always turn off the inputs, not only on the tracks, but in the Preferences as well.
What do you mean exactly by 'audio settings'? Could you be a bit more specific?
The bolded part. I was wondering if possibly you could somehow be routing audio to somewhere you weren't aware of, like prelisten to somewhere. But hard to say not sitting in front of your system.

When I have this kind of mind-boggling problem I typically first save the song, unless I just did that and know I won't miss what I did since, then immediately save a copy of the song, outside of the project folder, so into a new one. Then, firmly in the copy I delete tracks, plug-ins and devices until the issue goes away. Then I undo and investigate closer.

Is it possible for you to save a project displaying the issue? Or is it gone next time you open it? Found this happens in connection to certain operations or devices?

All of this very much sound like something that Ableton support would help you with on Monday.
Make some music!

DemolitionColorScheme
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:11 pm

Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:20 am

Stromkraft wrote:
DemolitionColorScheme wrote: No armed tracks and no inputs. When I'm done recording, I always turn off the inputs, not only on the tracks, but in the Preferences as well.
What do you mean exactly by 'audio settings'? Could you be a bit more specific?
The bolded part. I was wondering if possibly you could somehow be routing audio to somewhere you weren't aware of, like prelisten to somewhere. But hard to say not sitting in front of your system.

When I have this kind of mind-boggling problem I typically first save the song, unless I just did that and know I won't miss what I did since, then immediately save a copy of the song, outside of the project folder, so into a new one. Then, firmly in the copy I delete tracks, plug-ins and devices until the issue goes away. Then I undo and investigate closer.

Is it possible for you to save a project displaying the issue? Or is it gone next time you open it? Found this happens in connection to certain operations or devices?

All of this very much sound like something that Ableton support would help you with on Monday.
Oh yeah - no, no external or even internal routing (outside of groups). I do sometimes have individual tracks in groups routed to a return track and then a bit on the group as well, however this shouldn't be an issue at all.

I haven't actually tried resaving the project to a different location, nor have I tried saving a project after the feedback happens. The projects were Live 8 projects, but that shouldn't be an issue, right? I also made sure that it just wasn't that specific project, since I'm having the issue across all of the other projects I've tried.

There's a certain randomness to it:
When I playback material and it doesn't show up, it doesn't show up unless I perform an action; like jumping ahead in a track or whatever. I've also encountered the problem when loading a plugin onto a track once (not even a return), but I haven't had that since then. Granted, I haven't used Live 9 much due to these issues and have stuck with 8 for now (even on Windows 10, which was a hassle, since it had to be troubleshot for compatibility).

From what I can tell, the feedback happens to return tracks that have time-based effects on them; regardless of it being third party or Live itself.
Last edited by DemolitionColorScheme on Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stromkraft
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:26 pm

DemolitionColorScheme wrote: Oh yeah - no, no external or even internal routing (outside of groups). I do sometimes have individual tracks in groups routed to a return track and then a bit on the group as well, however this shouldn't be an issue at all.

I haven't actually tried resaving the project to a different location, nor have I tried saving a project after the feedback happens. The projects were Live 8 projects, but that shouldn't be an issue, right? I also made sure that it just wasn't that specific project, since I'm having the issue across all of the other projects I've tried.

There's a certain randomness to it:
When I playback material and it doesn't show up, it doesn't show up unless I perform an action; like jumping ahead in a track or whatever. I've also encountered the problem when loading a plugin onto a track once (not even a return), but I haven't had that since then. Granted, I haven't used Live 9 much due to these issues and have stuck with 8 for now (even on Windows 10, which was a hassle, since it had to be troubleshot for compatibility).

From what I can tell, the feedback happens to return tracks that have time-based effects on time; regardless of it being third party or Live itself.
A very intriguing problem for sure. It's possible there could be a problem wiht the original being made with 8. You could attempt to re-create this project in a new empty Live 9 project. To be able to move over the returns, you need to group them into a rack and save them. Then make a screenshot or take notes of levels and any odd routings. Start with bringing these returns back into the new project in exactly the same order. At this point save the project.

Drag in the tracks from the Live 8 project one by one. Make sure you delete the tracks you got when creating the new project so you start with just one track and then build up until you have the same song as in Live 8. Recreate any routings. Don't save so you keep undo at hand, if the problem comes back.

Another thing. Do you have native Live devices in those tracks? If so, replace them with the 9 version at first possibility. Any native instrument would also need to be replaced by updating the instrument once the preset is loaded.

I have no specific reason to suggest this other than the Live 8 origin is pretty much an unknown variable. That it should work without triggering this issue of yours doesn't mean that it's out of the question.

So this way you'd at least remove this variable pretty much. A more extreme version would be to export track by track to MIDI and to audio and painstakingly recreate the project that way.

If this works remember to make a collect all and save.

I've had to rebuild projects from scratch before in Live 9, when the issue just couldn't be pin-pointed. That was actually faster than finding the issue and that particular one never happened again.
Make some music!

DemolitionColorScheme
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:11 pm

Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:09 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
DemolitionColorScheme wrote: Oh yeah - no, no external or even internal routing (outside of groups). I do sometimes have individual tracks in groups routed to a return track and then a bit on the group as well, however this shouldn't be an issue at all.

I haven't actually tried resaving the project to a different location, nor have I tried saving a project after the feedback happens. The projects were Live 8 projects, but that shouldn't be an issue, right? I also made sure that it just wasn't that specific project, since I'm having the issue across all of the other projects I've tried.

There's a certain randomness to it:
When I playback material and it doesn't show up, it doesn't show up unless I perform an action; like jumping ahead in a track or whatever. I've also encountered the problem when loading a plugin onto a track once (not even a return), but I haven't had that since then. Granted, I haven't used Live 9 much due to these issues and have stuck with 8 for now (even on Windows 10, which was a hassle, since it had to be troubleshot for compatibility).

From what I can tell, the feedback happens to return tracks that have time-based effects on time; regardless of it being third party or Live itself.
A very intriguing problem for sure. It's possible there could be a problem wiht the original being made with 8. You could attempt to re-create this project in a new empty Live 9 project. To be able to move over the returns, you need to group them into a rack and save them. Then make a screenshot or take notes of levels and any odd routings. Start with bringing these returns back into the new project in exactly the same order. At this point save the project.

Drag in the tracks from the Live 8 project one by one. Make sure you delete the tracks you got when creating the new project so you start with just one track and then build up until you have the same song as in Live 8. Recreate any routings. Don't save so you keep undo at hand, if the problem comes back.

Another thing. Do you have native Live devices in those tracks? If so, replace them with the 9 version at first possibility. Any native instrument would also need to be replaced by updating the instrument once the preset is loaded.

I have no specific reason to suggest this other than the Live 8 origin is pretty much an unknown variable. That it should work without triggering this issue of yours doesn't mean that it's out of the question.

So this way you'd at least remove this variable pretty much. A more extreme version would be to export track by track to MIDI and to audio and painstakingly recreate the project that way.

If this works remember to make a collect all and save.

I've had to rebuild projects from scratch before in Live 9, when the issue just couldn't be pin-pointed. That was actually faster than finding the issue and that particular one never happened again.
Those are some very good tips, yeah! What I can also do is - and is a lot less of a hassle - just take an empty Live set and just grab some audio and some time-based effects on some return tracks and see what happens. If I can make sure nothing like this happens in fresh projects, I can then later see how to get old Live 8 projects running smoothly.

DemolitionColorScheme
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by DemolitionColorScheme » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:15 pm

So, back again after laying Live 9 down for a while. Just couldn't get it to work and still can't. I tested with just an audio file and two return tracks with some different delays and verbs and the problem persisted. So, it had nothing to do with the project itself or that it was a Live 8 project. Neither does it really seem to be about any particular plugin.

I think I've isolated the problem, though:
The problem only seems to occur whenever I skip forward in a track in the Arrangement view. Whenever I skip forward in a track in the Session view, no feedback bursts or errors occur. The thing is, not using the Arrangement view is a real bitch and still makes Live 9 unusable for me. Not sure what the next step is ...

The thing is, I'm in this weird spot that Live 9 won't work for me and Live 8 kinda sucks with Windows 10. I have to run Live 8 in compatibility mode and then it does run, but I experience a bunch of crashes and at times the UI of plugins will just go white and I have to reboot Live 8 / the laptop for them to show up again. Not to mention that I bought a plugin today and it couldn't be authorized because I was using Live 8 in compatibility mode. All this stuff is really killing my workflow, haha.

Tagor
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Re: Live 9 Issue : Extreme Feedback Loops / Noise Bursts

Post by Tagor » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:57 pm

when i playback Omnisphere and use internal distortion FX sometimes this happens.

the only thing to stop - remove instrument and re insert.

its very rare - but sometimes its happens - never had this on stage - phew

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