Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
TTOZ
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:05 am

Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by TTOZ » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:22 am

Would very much like to know if PDC has been improved in Live 10 also. If not, for me there's no reason to UPG.

I just want it to be equal to daw's like cubase or S1 in that regards.

What still needs fixing, and i am just copying this directly from ableton's own PDC info page that i searched 2 minutes ago via google:

Which elements are not compensated?
1)Graphics Elements are not compensated
Level meters, video playback and other graphic elements might be displayed slightly ahead of time with respect to the audio.

2)Built-in device modulation synced to the Live transport (i.e., synced to a specific beat-time position) is not compensated
One example would be the Auto Filter LFO (in Sync mode), which might be slightly off depending on the position the device has in the effect chain. Specifically, if the Auto Filter is located after a number of devices introducing a large latency, the modulation might be offset to an earlier position with respect to the grid. This only happens with devices which sync to a specific song position. Devices such as Ping Pong Delay, Filter Delay, and Simple Delay are always correctly compensated.

3)Return tracks are not compensated when routed back to an audio track if the respective Send on the destination track is active
To restore the correct delay compensation for Return tracks routed to Audio tracks, disable the respective sends. You can disable a send by right clicking on the Send knob and choosing "Disable Send". For example, if you route Return Track A to Audio Track 1, right click on Send A on Track 1 and choose "Disable Send" to restore the correct latency compensation.


As far as i am concerned, if this isn't fixed, then live's PDC is still nothing more than half assed and still the main reason why i never moved to it full time and use it in rewire to cubase (therefore not having the issues anyway as i can't use 3rd party plugs in rewire).

I would have happily switched to live as my one and only daw whatsoever had PDC been fixed. I detest bitwig and just can't get into it for some reason (plus it has awful stretch, even in latest demo), and out of the two i infinitely prefer Live. Even though Bitwig has proper PDC. But i digress..

Some examples:

1) Pro tools has proper PDC. Sure it's capped at 16384 samples but besides only being able to use one uad multiband comp in series at 44K, every other UAD effect falls well within and i can happily use 8 of them on each track if i want. Everything is visually and audibly compensated, including all sends/returns. Pro tools PDC is in fact that good, that i can adjust effects with variable latency (i have a gate here from plugin alliance that goes from 0 - 100ms and everything in between), that i can literally see the delay figure in pro tools' mixer being updated on ANY latent plugin as i change a parameter in realtime. Not only that, it does it seamlessly without playback glitches. True.
Pro tools doesn't have PDC on sidechains unless you go HD.. Ok, it is what it is. (does live have that anyway?). Since i use like 4 sidechains a project, i create ghost tracks that are one and done, as i hide them.. Easy. Furthermore you can put latent plugins after the sidechain plugin and there are no issues. Yet even furthermore, one always knows the absolutely exact delay of any single thing in pro tools in the mixer and you can just alt/H and move by that sample figure in about 3 seconds. Done.
So basically, it has one or two limitations but it works so good overall, that i would be in HEAVEN if live had the same "limitations"!

2) Cubase has great PDC.. inc sidechains.. BUT, unlike Logic, Cubase can not compensate for a latent effect if it's the one receiving the actual sidechain signal. Only effects before and after it, or on the track feeding it, are compensated. Still, overall, amazing..

3) Logic does not compensate automation and is very slow to respond to any sort of audio changes. That said, S/C works perfectly, i set the alliance G8 at 100ms and did rhythmic sidechaining and it was bang on beat, which cubase couldn't do. Furthermore, logic does have a work around that works 100% of the time, for automation. You output that track to a bus and put the massively latent effects on a bus instead and automate them there. I've explained it in detail at other forums.

4) S1 just works all round, Reaper does too, i believe MOTU and Bitwig do as well but can't verify those two for myself. S1's automation timing with large latent plugins can now be a bit flakey with the new hybrid engine as of 3.5 but i am pretty sure they will make it spot on like it was from V2 through 3.5

Point is, everything else that does PDC, has workarounds to enable it to be completely usable in a *realtime* situation without any rendering/effects flattening needed. All of them.
I hate bouncing stuff as i am changing the mix constantly, tweaking till it sounds the best it can be. Doesn't everyone?

And as another user above said, using UAD in live is a nightmare cause there is literally no spot at any point, where the playhead is in time with the audio being heard (which can also make edits confusing), even by having just one uad effect say on track 1, in a 32 track project, all 32 tracks are visually out of time. And linear phase EQ's.. um.. let's not go there LOL!

I don't know of any other dev that has had so much time to fix something. And so many people asking them to fix it for a decade. All they ever did for us, was add some code to tell automation to shift by the total number of latency on a particular track.. under the hood, it's exactly how it's always been for 10 years, in other words, crap PDC.

Which is a shame, cause it really is outstanding software and there is so much else to love about it.
I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:55 am

TTOZ wrote: Which elements are not compensated?
1)Graphics Elements are not compensated
Level meters, video playback and other graphic elements might be displayed slightly ahead of time with respect to the audio.
You don't give a source for that and you don't indicate which version this is about, but in the limited tests I did with heavy PDC, latency plug-ins in the range of thousands of samples, in Live 10, graphics were unaffected. Can't tell if it's sample accurate as I don't care about that for graphics.

As for 3) I suggest you need to prove how any DAW can calculate for that in a Session type of signal path where the coming calculations are always unknown. I don't think it's possible without meddling with time itself, that I have to assume you're not suggesting. Bitwig compensates for potentially endless signal path loops? Really? How is that even possible in the reality we live in? Do you know? I know of spooky action, but I don't see that applying here.

I can see a suggestion for solving this in Arrangement view where I assume it might be possible. Maybe you can solve it at the cost of ugly glitches or something? Or you have to compensate for those as well.

As for 2) Angstrom here explained previously a long time ago the difficulty for solving this, but as I can compensate for this manually when there is an offset control, I'm not sure I still understand why it's so hard to fix and it isn't in 10.

If PDC can be improved I'm all for it, but I think your examples come off as a little bit misguiding, though it's very good to hear about how well other DAWs work with PDC.
Make some music!

TTOZ
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:05 am

Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by TTOZ » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:22 am

1) That's all i wanted to know, if live 10 fixed it. That makes it worth upgrading to me.

I never said live 10 didn't, i was asking if it did.

As far as it is now in 9, it's very difficult to enjoy audio editing when using latent plugins.

2) I misunderstood the entire thing.. i thought send/return busses weren't compensated.. no, there is no daw i know of that can compensate a never-ending feedback loop.
Who would want that anyway?

3) How can my examples come off misguiding when i copied and pasted from ableton's own webpage?

as far as fixing tempo sync stuff, well boo hoo, if they haven't fixed it, i'll complain about it and vote with my wallet.

I find it very very strange that ableton would not list one pdc enhancement in the entire product info for 10.. i scoured it and it had the smallest details about seemingly everything, so by not being there, i thought as some others here do, that it would be the same.

I am glad to see that at least they have compensated graphics. And yes, every other daw does this, except for reason, which also doesn't compensate graphics.. but seeing it's unique signal capabilities and that this was their first ever attempt at PDC, well, i'll give them a break for now.

Just because you don't seem to have issue with all this stuff, doesn't mean other's don't. Others who want to use live and use all their uad stuff, or even only uad stuff (plus live's own internal fx which are generally great, bar the crappy channel comp - the glue of course is great for busses and master bus).

I have lost track of how many people have whined about the pdc over the years.. for a decade.. so i'm far from alone. That said, i really AM happy for you that YOU are happy with 10. Truly. Why wouldn't i be? I can feel a little begrudged towards Ableton, but as my "one period every two years" posting here shows, i inquire, find out what i need to know, and if it's not what i need for me, i move on and don't troll about it, just like I will this time, once i get a definite answer either way on 10. :)

I guess i also wanted to know, as if 10 wasn't the one that fixed pdc once and for all to be at least on par with cubase and other daws, i would finally dispose of my license for live.
I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

pencilrocket
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:23 am

3) How can my examples come off misguiding when i copied and pasted from ableton's own webpage?
Don't try to fully engage his conversation :lol:
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Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:28 pm

TTOZ wrote:
I have lost track of how many people have whined about the pdc over the years.. for a decade.. so i'm far from alone. That said, i really AM happy for you that YOU are happy with 10.


I guess i also wanted to know, as if 10 wasn't the one that fixed pdc once and for all to be at least on par with cubase and other daws, i would finally dispose of my license for live.
Well, I can't say how happy I am yet, but except for Bitwig I don't see any alternative that can compare. Unfortunately, much PDC critique you can find is now dated, so you cannot put too much value into old discussions. This also applies for some of the Ableton Help pages, at least those where users respond. Which is perhaps unfortunate.

As I think you described yourself — Oh, you quoted that. May I suggest you mark up quotes as quotes and provide a reference URL? — send and returns are fully delay compensated, also when a return is routed to an audio track, as long as the send to said return isn't enabled. Unfortunately it is by default. It shouldn't be.

Some of your other PDC points are of course correct, which I already have indicated. It would be useful for the discussion if you gave some examples for Cubase / Pro Tools where they have solved some of these issues. For example PDC for synced automation.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:37 pm

TTOZ wrote: 3) How can my examples come off misguiding when i copied and pasted from ableton's own webpage?
That'll be your presentation and maybe some of the following conclusions. I didn't mean everything was wrong or something like that.

If I understand you correctly you're not using Live currently, though you own a license. That simply shows.

Otherwise this is an important area for all users. It's should be a focal point for Ableton.
Make some music!

TTOZ
Posts: 98
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by TTOZ » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:17 am

Stromkraft wrote:
TTOZ wrote: 3) How can my examples come off misguiding when i copied and pasted from ableton's own webpage?
That'll be your presentation and maybe some of the following conclusions. I didn't mean everything was wrong or something like that.

If I understand you correctly you're not using Live currently, though you own a license. That simply shows.

Otherwise this is an important area for all users. It's should be a focal point for Ableton.
i uninstalled live all of 7 days ago. The latest V9. Before that I used it every day.

To me you are coming across as a troll sorry to say.. And no, i am not going to make videos and find links about other daw's. How about you download the demo for yourself and see, rather than consistently insinuation i have some agenda here or am flat out lying?

Ableton could also download the demo of any software and see proper PDC for themselves. I even pointed out the scenarios where those daw's fail with PDC, and quite clearly said that the compromise was much smaller as far as i was concerned. I was very fair and critical of all software involved. Muting you now for good, say what you please, i stick to my mutes and will never see another thing you write ever again. Merry Christmas to you, and hopefully the new year helps you be less cynical of people and presuming they have nefarious intentions.

edit: hmm can't find a way to mute someone here.. no worry i'll use adblock with custom filters or just completely ignore you. BYE!
I am bitwig, pick me, pick me, i now hAs midi export!

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:27 am

TTOZ wrote:
To me you are coming across as a troll sorry to say.. And no, i am not going to make videos and find links about other daw's.
I'm sorry you feel this way. I must have mistaken you for someone who wanted to have a discussion about the importance of proper PDC in Ableton Live. Luckily the sentiment that proper PDC is very important is something shared by almost all Live users.

Thing is that what does indeed work with PDC in Live actually does work reliably and well, down to the sample level. I've made dozens of tests to feel confident this is so.

There are also other areas of PDC that don't work as most users know. Those that I'm aware of are:
  • host tempo synced parameters coming after a non-zero latency device/plug-in
  • returns that are routed to a track with a send going back to the return.


For those that are interested in the wider subject of PDC and use other DAWs, I and many others would welcome your input on how PDC is handled in these other DAWs. Of particular interest to me is Bitwig. I currently have Pro Tools installed, but haven't gotten around to use it for anything.

Ableton should own up the situation with PDC and stay on top on what is possible and desirable for us users. Discussing these matters and time from time asking Ableton directly that they improve the core of Live, which would include PDC evolution, is vital. I'm sure they'd welcome that too.
Make some music!

miercoles
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by miercoles » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:36 pm

To me you are coming across as a troll sorry to say.. And no, i am not going to make videos and find links about other daw's. How about you download the demo for yourself and see, rather than consistently insinuation i have some agenda here or am flat out lying?
I feel you TTOZ... I responded to this post as well with the same question as the OP and was bombarded by Stromkraft telling me I don't know how to mix. Never met him, never heard his stuff, he's never heard mine. guy's a joke, never used protools cuz he "doesn't have an ilok" (sure sounds like an expert), but somehow he's able to respond on comparing the 2. Textbook example of everything that's wrong with internet forums. You don't rack up that many posts by mastering any craft - unless your craft is posing or trolling.

Why can't the OP question just be addressed without somebody who disagrees with it chiming in with every new post? The question is NOT about IF it needs improving. Start a new thread about that is you wish, but stop responding just to negate the questions being asked. Your agenda is pointless.

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:58 pm

miercoles wrote:
To me you are coming across as a troll sorry to say.. And no, i am not going to make videos and find links about other daw's. How about you download the demo for yourself and see, rather than consistently insinuation i have some agenda here or am flat out lying?
I feel you TTOZ... I responded to this post as well with the same question as the OP and was bombarded by Stromkraft telling me I don't know how to mix. Never met him, never heard his stuff, he's never heard mine. guy's a joke, never used protools cuz he "doesn't have an ilok" (sure sounds like an expert), but somehow he's able to respond on comparing the 2. Textbook example of everything that's wrong with internet forums. You don't rack up that many posts by mastering any craft - unless your craft is posing or trolling.

Why can't the OP question just be addressed without somebody who disagrees with it chiming in with every new post? The question is NOT about IF it needs improving. Start a new thread about that is you wish, but stop responding just to negate the questions being asked. Your agenda is pointless.
Your points are accepted. I'll see how I can change my tone in these matters. I'm actually trying to be factual, but apparently I'm failing. Thank you for pointing this out.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:12 pm

miercoles wrote: I feel you TTOZ... I responded to this post as well with the same question as the OP and was bombarded by Stromkraft telling me I don't know how to mix.
My apologies for those unnecessary remarks, miercoles. I've removed them and I'm very sorry about that.

However, I stand by the factual content I provided to this discussion.
Make some music!

georgiotolias
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by georgiotolias » Wed May 22, 2019 3:15 am

If you play the same sound side by side with logic ableton live (9) and Pro tools 12 you will hear a Huge difference, of course being logic and prot tools having this significant clarity that ableton doesn't. Even the i'm well invested in the push 2 and ableton pro 9 i can onnly say the true reality of matter is that Pro tools and Logic pro x do know how to translate accurately in renders. Can't speak for Ableton 10 tho... :)


Amoji
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Amoji » Wed May 22, 2019 6:47 pm

Amythofficial wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:38 am
I used Logic Pro to write my music for quite a few years. But two years back I moved to Ableton Live 9. I use Ableton to write, mix and master my tracks just like I used to on Logic Pro X. I did find a change in Ableton’s sound engine vs Logic’s.I just want to know from the Ableton Live Beta testers if there’s any change in the audio engine of Ableton 10 from Ableton 9 ?

Na however there are differences between Operator and the Compressor "look" ahead times.

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