Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Amythofficial
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Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Amythofficial » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:11 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:
Amythofficial wrote:I did find a change in Ableton’s sound engine vs Logic’s.
The anticipation is killing me! What was the change that you noticed?

Most people talk about "audio engine" in terms of sound quality. That's not a real thing. A wav file is a wave file, etc.

The issue is normally due to using the wrong warp algorithm or using the wrong settings in preferences. Those are easily fixed with about 4 mouse clicks. :D

The other sound quality issue is the Ableton synth and effects plugins, which are often horrible, but that's solved with third party plugins.
please guide me with fixing my issue with the mouse clicks

Amythofficial
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Amythofficial » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:24 pm

Martin Gifford wrote:
Amythofficial wrote:I did find a change in Ableton’s sound engine vs Logic’s.
The anticipation is killing me! What was the change that you noticed?
Since the time I've moved to ableton l simply find finishing my tracks a bit tough (mixing wise). I just can't take a right call where mixing a song in ableton is concerned. Where in Logic this thing is totally opposite. Please dot't get me wrong. I LOVE ABLETON.

But when you're working in Logic the sound is so open ( its kinda hard to explain it here) you just end up taking right decisions about mixing. I hope I'm making sense.

The only reason I made this post is that I don't want to write a song in Ableton and move to Logic for mixing it.I know there's nothing wrong in doing that. I want Ableton Live to be my Primary DAW for everything that's all.

Martin Gifford
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Martin Gifford » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:33 am

Amythofficial wrote:please guide me with fixing my issue with the mouse clicks
Here's one brief video for one problem where he explains why people say Ableton sounds bad and how to fix it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPrzjLHJy5Y

Do a YouTube search about choosing the best warp algorithm.

Oh, in addition to what's already been mentioned, Ableton used to have a problem with delayed processing of effects. That was also fixed about a year ago, I think.

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:40 am

Martin Gifford wrote:Ableton used to have a problem with delayed processing of effects. That was also fixed about a year ago, I think.
Live 9.2 was released on June 29 2015. That's more than two years ago.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:55 am

Amythofficial wrote:
But when you're working in Logic the sound is so open ( its kinda hard to explain it here) you just end up taking right decisions about mixing. I hope I'm making sense.
I've been using Logic since before Apple bought it. I switched to Live early 2013. You're not making sense to me and I disagree about the sound.

It's more likely you like the Logic mixer — which is more advanced at least than what the Live mixer is on the first look — and the native Logic effect devices. Your ease of decisions likely stems from your knowledge of these items.

Now, LIve is not Logic. You will have to accept it for what it is now and for what it can become. But making decisions is based on the structure you build yourself. If you feel you're lacking you probably need to improve your knowledge of Live simply by mixing tracks to finish again and again.

Find the idiosyncrasies, limits and the character of the devices you use. Find which devices that work and which do not. Seek out third party replacements when needed and incorporate them into your work flow.

I think there's no way around getting to know your tools. Live may seem simple for some, but it really is deep in the same way Logic is, just a different approach. And yeah, I still love Logic. I just couldn't finish any tracks using it even if I had great fun.
Make some music!

miercoles
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by miercoles » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:20 pm

I find there is absolutely a difference in the summing coming out of Ableton - I don't think its as good for mixing as Logic or Pro Tools. hardly seems debatable... I've been using Abe since version FOUR. v9 absolutely improved on this, but still not with the space and headroom of PT. Its a pain in the a$$ bouncing everything from Abe and setting up a mix in PT, but I do it for most projects. I would absolutely LOVE to mix in Abe if it was up to par. Its fine for rough mixes, but I wouldn't mix anything in Ableton if I was hired specifically for mixing.

Not trying to offend anybody, Ableton certainly didn't start off as mixing software. I'm not sure why so many people are in denial or offended about this? Ableton is #1 in my book for composing and just about everything else.

I would love to be wrong on this and its certainly something i'm hoping for in v10 ---

Is there anybody out there who mixes in Ableton professionally? please chime in- I would love to hear about that!

Machinesworking
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:44 pm

miercoles wrote:I find there is absolutely a difference in the summing coming out of Ableton - I don't think its as good for mixing as Logic or Pro Tools. hardly seems debatable... I've been using Abe since version FOUR. v9 absolutely improved on this, but still not with the space and headroom of PT. Its a pain in the a$$ bouncing everything from Abe and setting up a mix in PT, but I do it for most projects. I would absolutely LOVE to mix in Abe if it was up to par. Its fine for rough mixes, but I wouldn't mix anything in Ableton if I was hired specifically for mixing.

Not trying to offend anybody, Ableton certainly didn't start off as mixing software. I'm not sure why so many people are in denial or offended about this? Ableton is #1 in my book for composing and just about everything else.

I would love to be wrong on this and its certainly something i'm hoping for in v10 ---

Is there anybody out there who mixes in Ableton professionally? please chime in- I would love to hear about that!
You're not offending, you're just misinformed. Pro Tools etc. do generally have more options mix wise, but the basic tracks when rendered to WAV are exactly the same.
Tarakith mixes in Live I'm pretty sure, I do sometimes when there are maybe a dozen tracks.


Here's a simple test, to prove you're right, if in fact you are right.
Render all tracks to audio from Live like you normally do, get the best levels you can between tracks. import them into and empty Pro Tools session, then render them to a WAV file.
Do the same thing in Live. Make sure both tracks are identical decibel wise, exact same volume etc. Play them for friends without telling them which DAW or summing bus was used.

Summing busses are the same for all DAWs, that's all there is to it. The tools a DAW gives you to mix with though greatly affect how you feel about mixing in that DAW, Live offers not a lot of things that DAWs like Pro Tools and others do. I don't often mix in Live, but it's not due to the summing bus being bad, it's due to the fact that DP9 my other DAW offers much more flexibility in terms of it's mixer section, I can see the plug ins loaded into a track, I can organize or hide tracks quickly and I can even save mix takes to go back to if I go down a rabbit hole etc.

It's really one of the most common misconceptions that people have about DAWs, it's not just Live, but people will swear that their recent switch to say Cubase from Logic has an affect on their mix because of the summing bus, when it's really their new found enthusiasm for a DAW. Pro Tools having the fame of being "the" hit making studio DAW is going to have a lot of perceived greatness in terms of mixing, but again people fed up with Pro Tools will swear Studio One sound better.....

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:54 pm

miercoles wrote:I find there is absolutely a difference in the summing coming out of Ableton


Not trying to offend anybody, Ableton certainly didn't start off as mixing software. I'm not sure why so many people are in denial or offended about this?
People are not in denial. They just can mix with Live and likely find your summing notion to be quite ridiculous. Especially as this notion has been proven to be false years ago.

Obviously you can't get anywhere hoping Live should be like Pro Tools. It's not, which I think you have accepted. Take it for what it is and please understand one can make excellent mixes in Live. Maybe not you possibly, but others can. Which doesn't mean you cannot make better mixes in PT. This has about nothing to do with digital summing though. It's just a different studio which could be a better fit.

So what is the likely explanation for your experience of mixing with Live and PT? There's pan law, true stereo panning, bad use of warping and flattening in Live due to ignorance and the fact there's a mixer in PT allowing things not possible (or unknown to you) in Live. Also there are the native devices/plug-ins that may be of better quality in PT in some cases, or at least be more in line with your taste. All of these are flavours and that's pretty much it.

If you want to compare you need to take all of these out of the equation if you want to know something about digital summing on these DAWs. The tool is nullification as machinesworking suggested.

Unfortunately I can't verify anything in Protools as they ask for iLok 2 even for the demo.

Bring it on and teach us, Tiger! There's a chance you're right and this will give you a story to tell this Christmas. What are you waiting for?
Make some music!

miercoles
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by miercoles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:52 am

LOL!!!

"Unfortunately I can't verify anything in Protools as they ask for iLok 2 even for the demo"

then why are you even answering at all? tough to compare 2 things when you are only familiar with one of them.
Last edited by miercoles on Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

miercoles
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by miercoles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:15 am

hey Machinesworking -

thanks for that response, but I have somewhat done the test you speak of... not as a means to prove anything, but just as part of my usual process. I leave most general plug-ins as they are in ableton when I do my bounces for PT - first thing I do in my PT session is adjust the levels to where they are about the same as in Ableton. Even at this stage it sounds better. No new plug-ins yet, no new routings, busses, etc. same studio, same monitors, etc. I've A/B'd them right then and there. It feels like the sound in Ableton is passing through a slightly more narrow tunnel than in PT. its slightly darker in the top end and has more muddy spots.

I don't really like the workflow in PT, its more "engineer" and less creative. Ableton is super comfortable so I'd be so happy to do all production/mixing in Ableton if it didn't feel like a compromise. I usually record vocals into Ableton as well, its just that very last final mix stage where I feel the need for something else.

Honestly, I don't feel much need to debate this, I don't really mind if every other person chooses to mix in Ableton - I'd just like to get a better result out of Live 10 myself

fishmonkey
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:25 am

miercoles wrote:first thing I do in my PT session is adjust the levels to where they are about the same as in Ableton. Even at this stage it sounds better.
you cannot make a comparison by adjusting the levels until they are "about the same" and doing an A/B like that. it's nonsensical in this context.

also, the only way to make a proper comparison is to do double-blind testing, where you yourself do not know which source is which. without doing that, your own biases will intrude.
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:01 am

miercoles wrote:LOL!!!

"Unfortunately I can't verify anything in Protools as they ask for iLok 2 even for the demo"

then why are you even answering at all? tough to compare 2 things when you are only familiar with one of them.
[unnecessary words deleted by Stromkraft]. You're interested comparing to PT. I'm not.

You made claims. I did not make those. The burden is on you. [unnecessary words deleted by Stromkraft]

I have compared with other DAWs, that I'm more interested in.

So where are the exactly adjusted project files and work products. C'mon, just do these already.

Do I care what you prefer to mix in? Of course not. I only care about you making claims without merit about summing in DAWs [unnecessary words deleted by Stromkraft].
Last edited by Stromkraft on Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:12 am

fishmonkey wrote: also, the only way to make a proper comparison is to do double-blind testing, where you yourself do not know which source is which. without doing that, your own biases will intrude.
I don't think you need to use an experiment that involves personal bias if you make sure you make only adjustments that can be repeated exactly in both DAWs. It actually doesn't matter "how it sounds" in this case.

What matters to determine if summing is different is if the work products null or not. What you think you hear is then irrelevant if the files null. I view that discussion to be settled since years.

A main problem in attempting the null is to disregard that pan law and everything else need to be exactly the same. That means you have to measure and adjust one DAW to the other.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:36 am

miercoles wrote:h
Honestly, I don't feel much need to debate this, I don't really mind if every other person chooses to mix in Ableton - I'd just like to get a better result out of Live 10 myself
Well, those of us that want to update to 10, want to make use of the news there.

I want to thank you for being somewhat obnoxious about this as just came up with some testing improvements. I love when discussions lead to results. Thanks!
Make some music!

miercoles
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Re: Any Improvements In The Audio Engine Of Ableton Live 10?

Post by miercoles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:23 pm

Stromkraft wrote: Clearly you know very little of digital audio or you would understand I don't need to**. You're interested comparing to PT. I'm not.
I don't care what you're doing or not doing, you know nothing relevant to my question so you can stop trying to answer. I'm sure your ableton mixes put the pros to shame and hopefully you can create some tutorials for us.

digital audio is not all created equal. if so, than Apogee, RME, Lavry, etc all have a great scam going charging 10-20x than entry level tascam interfaces. D/A conversion is just as much about software/drivers as it is hardware.

I've been mixing/producing in digital audio since 2001. Been using Ableton since about 2004. 13 years of both daws is enough "tests/comparisons". I have clients, this isn't a hobby for me. what about you? Not sure there's much I can learn from you aside from how to insult people and argue from the safety of my computer, but I don't have time for that because I have clients waiting on mixes... you know how it is i'm sure. I have no desire to upload material to prove my case because any pros who specifically work on mixes already knows what I'm talking about. That's who I was hoping to hear from. Life would be so much easier if I could get PT quality mixes out of Ableton - Stronkaraft may be able to do that, but every pro I know doesn't.

find some mix tutorials on youtube, how many of them are in Ableton? you can take courses on mixing in PT and Logic. I've never heard of a mix course on mixing in Ableton. Why is that?

I'm beyond done arguing and certainly done responding to the almighty Stronkraft. I would just like to hear from somebody, anybody who has mixed extensively in both PT and Ableton... as I've already said. otherwise, i'm out!

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