Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:41 am

That makes at least two of us Jester. Probably my biggest disappointment with the update is that the support for mapping of 3rd party VSTs is still so poorly supported on Push. If Ableton gave users some sort of UI that allowed them to easily put together the sorts of maps and displays that they've rolled out for Echo and the new Synth, along with making it easy to bulk create presets from VSTS, it would be a massive point of differentiation. They don't seem to see the opportunity. And relying on Max scripts like Isotonik's is a kludge. I sell engineering design software for a living - when we have a lot of clients regularly trying to do something we stick it in as core functionality. Scripts are a very poor 2nd place - and they break when whomever is writing the core software starts making changes the script writers aren't privy to.

jestermgee
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by jestermgee » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:55 am

cskracer wrote:That makes at least two of us Jester. Probably my biggest disappointment with the update is that the support for mapping of 3rd party VSTs is still so poorly supported on Push. If Ableton gave users some sort of UI that allowed them to easily put together the sorts of maps and displays that they've rolled out for Echo and the new Synth, along with making it easy to bulk create presets from VSTS, it would be a massive point of differentiation. They don't seem to see the opportunity. And relying on Max scripts like Isotonik's is a kludge. I sell engineering design software for a living - when we have a lot of clients regularly trying to do something we stick it in as core functionality. Scripts are a very poor 2nd place - and they break when whomever is writing the core software starts making changes the script writers aren't privy to.
Yeah I was really developing push VST packs but gave up as soon as I got a Komplete Kontrol... that is how it should be and now I do development for NKS. It's not even easily possible to create your own preview samples for the browser even though I have .ogg previews generated for every preset in Omnisphere, Keyscape, Trilian, Sylenth, Korg Legacy etc...

I'd love to use Push more but with Komplete Kontrol it is 100x faster to find a sound and start tweaking/recording than it is with Push. Lack of parameter mapping and library tagging (collections is not a solution) is a huge limitation and probably my single wish for updates but again, it's not enough for me to dedicate a new thread to complain about it, still lots to love.

pencilrocket
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by pencilrocket » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:24 am

[erm] wrote:We have moderators in place to determine what is inappropriate for the forum, and Stromkraft is not one of them despite how it might appear to people given how often he posts here.

We are always interested in knowing what people like and don’t like about Live, and this forum is perfectly fine to share those views as long as they don’t go against our community guidelines at the top of each forum.
I'm glad this guy is admin of the forum, being fair and not treating famboism prioritized like other official forums sometimes do.
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cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:19 am

jestermgee wrote:Yeah I was really developing push VST packs but gave up as soon as I got a Komplete Kontrol... that is how it should be and now I do development for NKS. It's not even easily possible to create your own preview samples for the browser even though I have .ogg previews generated for every preset in Omnisphere, Keyscape, Trilian, Sylenth, Korg Legacy etc...
The best thing about Komplete Kontrol is that VSTs developers like U-he actually produce the .nks files for their users. No one seems interested in doing the same for the Push.

jestermgee
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by jestermgee » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:25 am

cskracer wrote:
jestermgee wrote:Yeah I was really developing push VST packs but gave up as soon as I got a Komplete Kontrol... that is how it should be and now I do development for NKS. It's not even easily possible to create your own preview samples for the browser even though I have .ogg previews generated for every preset in Omnisphere, Keyscape, Trilian, Sylenth, Korg Legacy etc...
The best thing about Komplete Kontrol is that VSTs developers like U-he actually produce the .nks files for their users. No one seems interested in doing the same for the Push.
Yeah but the number of vendors that actually support NKS (not to mention 3rd party libraries) is very small still and some have been expressing "they are working on it" for years.

chapelier fou
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by chapelier fou » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:41 am

Machinesworking wrote:the new controller scripting for any controller is also going to ad more value than people realize. .
May I ask what you're referring to ?
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by hoffman2k » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:52 am

chapelier fou wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:the new controller scripting for any controller is also going to ad more value than people realize. .
May I ask what you're referring to ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFKfph2nv4k

cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:11 am

jestermgee wrote: Yeah but the number of vendors that actually support NKS (not to mention 3rd party libraries) is very small still and some have been expressing "they are working on it" for years.
Just reading your thread over on the NI forums. Doesn't sound like KK is in a much better spot than Push really.

It feels like both NI and Ableton are totally focussed on keeping users bound to their ecosystems. Rather than understanding that opening up their standards is potentially greatly additive to their businesses.

chapelier fou
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by chapelier fou » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:55 am

hoffman2k wrote:
chapelier fou wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:the new controller scripting for any controller is also going to ad more value than people realize. .
May I ask what you're referring to ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFKfph2nv4k
So cool. I'm back to MIDI !
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hoffman2k
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by hoffman2k » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:25 pm

cskracer wrote:
jestermgee wrote: Yeah but the number of vendors that actually support NKS (not to mention 3rd party libraries) is very small still and some have been expressing "they are working on it" for years.
Just reading your thread over on the NI forums. Doesn't sound like KK is in a much better spot than Push really.

It feels like both NI and Ableton are totally focussed on keeping users bound to their ecosystems. Rather than understanding that opening up their standards is potentially greatly additive to their businesses.
There's also m-audio hypercontrol, akai VIP, nektar, novation automap,...
The point being, what standard?
Its all competitors pushing a crappy vst wrapper so they can justify hiking prices for a plastic keyboard by about tenfold.
Ironically, hardware with Sysex banks was better integrated into older software than plugins are in modern software. So there is a standard of sorts and its been there for over 30 years.

cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:42 pm

If one of the vendors developed something like I've suggested tied to a controller they'd become the standard - just because it would be easy for users.

None of them have or show any interest in doing so though. It is easier to head back to hardware in some respects.

hoffman2k
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by hoffman2k » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:05 pm

cskracer wrote:If one of the vendors developed something like I've suggested tied to a controller they'd become the standard - just because it would be easy for users.

None of them have or show any interest in doing so though. It is easier to head back to hardware in some respects.
Don't leave it to the vendors. Their only motive is to sell more of their own products.
Its the developers that should unite. They'll gladly make plugins that look and sound like hardware. They'll add "wooden" panels long before they'll add Sysex. But to be fair, up until next week(-ish), Sysex wasn't supported in one of their biggest platforms. Synths like the Novation Nova series or the Analog Elektron are hardware examples that software developers should take note off.

Bionecteur
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Bionecteur » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:21 pm

when 10 was announced I was really a bit sad not to see that many big new features, because ...hey ...Ableton 10 ! ...but the more I read and hear about the update I see and understand that there are many little things which make totally sense . The higher integration of push 2 is ace fore example.
I am a user since Ableton 2 and see this update costs as an investment in this great company and sure there will be more great new things in the future.

Uwe
ritsch, ratsch, klick

ShelLuser
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:23 am

Well, can say that I wasn't expecting Live 10 so soon, took me by surprise.

But I have to agree with some of the critical comments. For me the update hardly holds as much impact as the upgrade from 8 to 9 had. Of course part of that was also fueled by the Orchestral Instrument Collection which suddenly became a part of the Suite, that had quite an impact on my work. I still love that package as much as I did back then.

I can't help spot a bit of the same trend which I've seen in other DAW's (most notably Reason): a seemingly shift in focus. So instead of primarily focusing on new sounds, new sound effects and all that a large part of the update is now also cosmetic. Not necessarily adding new features but more so adding "easier" features. Things which for me personally hold little value because I've already "solved" the "problems" using other methods.

But that's also exactly what some people seem to totally ignore: there's more to Live than just your own personal workspace. In my example Max for Live has had a massive impact on my work. Whatever Live couldn't do itself I was often able to work around with using M4l. But there are also plenty of Live users out there who don't (or can't) follow that workflow and for them this upgrade can definitely help them improve on their workflow.

In other words: I may not care for this as much, but that doesn't automatically make this a bad update. Nor does it make my current Live setup all of a sudden obsolete. Nonsense.

I'll most likely won't upgrade to 10 because I'm not quite convinced that the new features are worth the money, but who cares? Live 9 isn't going anywhere.

And another very important detail: companies like Ableton, Cycling '74 (so: also Ableton I guess :D ) and Propellerhead run a fair business. If I want to skip 10 because of "reasons" (some pun intended, sorry ;)) then they won't hold that against me. In other words: let's say that when Live 11 comes out I'm fully hooked again. I won't have to purchase a whole new license again but they'll simply allow me to upgrade with a discount. As always.

Some people make it sound as if you need to upgrade because otherwise everything comes to an end. Which is of course utter nonsense.

To me Live (and Reason) is a means, not a goal. And that's what makes a difference here I think.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the Big Trio: Live 9 Suite, Max5 / M4l and Reason 6.5.
Blog: SynthFan

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:12 am

cskracer wrote:If one of the vendors developed something like I've suggested tied to a controller they'd become the standard - just because it would be easy for users.

None of them have or show any interest in doing so though. It is easier to head back to hardware in some respects.
I think a lot of us wish the whole process of dealing with control surfaces wasn't so cobbled together for sure.
A huge wish of mine would be for some easy way to share VSTi configurations, since a community of people could assemble the most logical 128 parameters in a soft synth, sampler, FX etc. As it stands I added in the patch to get Live to automap 128 parameters, and for instance with Repro-1 the step sequencer hogs dozens of spots when I have zero reason to want it there in the first place... With NI Kore people came up with ksd's or whatever NI was calling the patches, for various synths and people could share them etc.

It's worth pointing out that the old Novation Remote SL MKII here works as a control surface for Live really really well, maps out names, and the sliders work in the mixer in Live etc. all without Automap at all. The downside is it uses Pushes 8 knobs as it's means, so plenty of unused knobs on the device. It's worth noting how much better this is than most DAWs, most are terrible with controllers, it's the end user spending effort to get something working, and sometimes even having to make that a template or it doesn't stay etc.

To really sink this home, I think a huge thing missing in Ableton's approach here is community. NI have a Reaktor Library in their forums, and what with Racks and Mapped VSTi/AU's, not to mention Max For Live devices etc. there's a total need for this with Live. Live has since 8 at the latest become as mod-able as Logic used to be, as Reaktor is etc.

Right now you can search the internet for some Joe's private website and pick up a Rack or so, but the whole things screams for a library run by Ableton of M4L Live specific patches, Racks, and VSTi/AU parameter maps.

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