Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Stromkraft
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:53 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
… I think a huge thing missing in Ableton's approach here is community. NI have a Reaktor Library in their forums, and what with Racks and Mapped VSTi/AU's, not to mention Max For Live devices etc. there's a total need for this with Live. Live has since 8 at the latest become as mod-able as Logic used to be, as Reaktor is etc.

Right now you can search the internet for some Joe's private website and pick up a Rack or so, but the whole things screams for a library run by Ableton of M4L Live specific patches, Racks, and VSTi/AU parameter maps.
A wonderful idea that would be even better if it was run by some long staying force within the community. I mean maxforlive.com isn't run by Ableton and is, in IMHO, great. I don't see any benefit Ableton running such a site, but maybe you do?
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mareproduction
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by mareproduction » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:36 pm

It's great that Ableton finally made a new version. All I need is a quick midi to audio bounce. Freez and flat is too slow if you have a long track. It would be good to be able to tag colors on the arranger track and to be a bit bigger. I dont need another synth :-)

ivarin
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by ivarin » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:54 pm

mareproduction wrote:I dont need another synth :-)
you're not human then 8O
:D

mekanism1200
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by mekanism1200 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:25 pm

My biggest complaint with 10 is the price. While I get that it is in line with prior upgrades and competetor pricing its interesting that for only $60 more we could buy Bitwig with their holiday sale. For $60 more I could just stick with 9 and get Bitwig and have 2 playgrounds to play in. :lol:

ShelLuser
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:50 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Right now you can search the internet for some Joe's private website and pick up a Rack or so, but the whole things screams for a library run by Ableton of M4L Live specific patches, Racks, and VSTi/AU parameter maps.
Isn't that what the Ableton Packs page basically is?

Or do you mean a library which has easier access and not necessarily a commercial aspect to it?
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the Big Trio: Live 10 Suite + Push, Max8 / M4l and Reason 10
Blog: SynthFan

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:34 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Right now you can search the internet for some Joe's private website and pick up a Rack or so, but the whole things screams for a library run by Ableton of M4L Live specific patches, Racks, and VSTi/AU parameter maps.
Isn't that what the Ableton Packs page basically is?

Or do you mean a library which has easier access and not necessarily a commercial aspect to it?
Mostly it would be nice if there was an easy way for end users to share single M4L devices and mapped parameters for VST/AU's. Especially the latter, as it stands even if you have only a couple dozen VST's you have days of Parameter mapping to map the most relevant parameters to the 128 spots Live allows. I really don't get why some DAW developer hasn't done this with even just a few dozen of the most common VSTi's?
Even in Push, with Live's new devices they mapped only the 8 macro knobs, even to switches in the devices.... When Live came out with the blank parameter maps instead of assigning the first 128 sent from a VSTi/AU I thought again how is this useful? I mean in terms of time actually making music? Most people when faced with a synth like Zebra2 for instance will always want the 8 macro XY controllers first, then the Master control section, since the rest is too changeable per patch. So you've got a million people around the world spending hours mapping out VST's, to in the end similar maps, and from what I can tell no way for end users to share those maps.
It's worse in Bitwig, ( more than half of the relevant controllers I own are mapped out in javascript by end users, they're literally getting their users to do their work for them? ), and not even possible to reorder VST parameters in other DAWs, not saying Ableton aren't on to something here, it's just that it could be a lot easier on the end user.

To the point about all the great M4L webpages, that was true with Pluggo as well, and eventually you ended up with abandoned pages. People not invested in the product have lifestyle changes etc. Looking at NI's Reaktor Library here as an example, the paid for ensembles are on independent webpages, but the free for all stuff is hosted by NI.

login
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by login » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 pm

Machinesworking wrote: Mostly it would be nice if there was an easy way for end users to share single M4L devices and mapped parameters for VST/AU's. Especially the latter, as it stands even if you have only a couple dozen VST's you have days of Parameter mapping to map the most relevant parameters to the 128 spots Live allows. I really don't get why some DAW developer hasn't done this with even just a few dozen of the most common VSTi's?
Even in Push, with Live's new devices they mapped only the 8 macro knobs, even to switches in the devices.... When Live came out with the blank parameter maps instead of assigning the first 128 sent from a VSTi/AU I thought again how is this useful? I mean in terms of time actually making music? Most people when faced with a synth like Zebra2 for instance will always want the 8 macro XY controllers first, then the Master control section, since the rest is too changeable per patch. So you've got a million people around the world spending hours mapping out VST's, to in the end similar maps, and from what I can tell no way for end users to share those maps.

It's worse in Bitwig, ( more than half of the relevant controllers I own are mapped out in javascript by end users, they're literally getting their users to do their work for them? ), and not even possible to reorder VST parameters in other DAWs, not saying Ableton aren't on to something here, it's just that it could be a lot easier on the end user.

To the point about all the great M4L webpages, that was true with Pluggo as well, and eventually you ended up with abandoned pages. People not invested in the product have lifestyle changes etc. Looking at NI's Reaktor Library here as an example, the paid for ensembles are on independent webpages, but the free for all stuff is hosted by NI.
If Ableton made ma´ps, people wouldn't like them for X o Y reason, because people use stuff differently, I think it is better to leave it to users.

About sharing we should try to share the "default" preset that can be saved and see if the configuration order remains if is used in another computer.

login
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by login » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:28 pm

About mapping and controllers, I have had Push, Novation SL Mk2, tried VIP and KK, as well as generic controllers. My conclusions:

1.- The system is better done by the DAW, automap, VIP and KK use a wrapper to run the plugin and handle the mappping with the hardware, it is complicated and very problematic if you update your system and want to reopen old projects. NI has the best chance to succed nevertheless because developers get involved and they have a good catalog of products to work with their system

2.- IMHO as long as controllers only have 8 knobs or faders this mapping/controlling quest is not going to get anywhere. Push allows to map 128 parameters in banks of 8 and shows name and value for each paramter, is probably the best controller outhere (lack of screen is a big handicap for others) but it is simply not enough to control synths: just too much surfing between pages to edit, I always end programming from the soft GUI. For effects it works well most of the time. Until somneone releases a controller with screen and way more knobs and a layout that resembles a synth using controllers is more of a chore, I invested time with each controller configuring and mapping the parameters I need the most and then some, but honeslty it doesn't speed up the workflow for me.

3.- The way Live does maps now, configuring the parameters is one of the best around and now you can save them. It needs the option to leave blank spaces and change parameter names, but apart from that I can't imagine what else it could be done, again the limit is more on the controller side.

4.- Push getting custom graphics is very nice and does improve the experience, Ableton could maybe offer developers a way to create custom graphics for their products.

I don't think Ableton is intentionally being "closed", the scripting system is quite open and there are many people offering scripts. Neither NI, both systems are suffering more from the lack of vision in controllers for synths.

I think the best idea around for controlling synths is the Roland System 1/8 synth and the plugouts software synths, they MAP 1:1, the hardware knob leds turn off if they are not active, the plugin has a GUI that reflects the HW layout. Controlling roland plugouts with the system1/8 really feels like using HW synths. Shame is a closed system, but I think the idea could be explored further, just start with a controller that looks like a synth and has 76 or more knobs and faders.

tintala
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by tintala » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:40 pm

Ive heard Reaper is a an amazing DAW and 100% totally customizable, customize shortcuts, colors, no audio or midi tracks just tracks,, I know a few legendary producers using it. Just mentioning it..

Stromkraft
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:08 am

tintala wrote:Ive heard Reaper is a an amazing DAW and 100% totally customizable, customize shortcuts, colors, no audio or midi tracks just tracks,, I know a few legendary producers using it. Just mentioning it..
I opened Reaper once. Once.

Let's just say that I know some great producers that used Dr T (Atari). Not enough to switch me from Cubase (at the time). That someone "is using something" means very little, I think. What matters should be the answer to "how do I want to make music and what tools could support me?".

That's just how I think and is also how I ended up with Live. People should just use what they prefer and get down and create.

If you don't know, try them all (if possible) for a short time, for actually making music. Then choose what feels best.

If the choice later turns out to be wrong, sell and buy one of the others. Over-analyzing often leads to paralysis. Better to just dive right in.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:43 am

login wrote: 2.- IMHO as long as controllers only have 8 knobs or faders this mapping/controlling quest is not going to get anywhere. Push allows to map 128 parameters in banks of 8 and shows name and value for each paramter, is probably the best controller outhere (lack of screen is a big handicap for others) but it is simply not enough to control synths: just too much surfing between pages to edit, I always end programming from the soft GUI. For effects it works well most of the time. Until somneone releases a controller with screen and way more knobs and a layout that resembles a synth using controllers is more of a chore, I invested time with each controller configuring and mapping the parameters I need the most and then some, but honeslty it doesn't speed up the workflow for me.
I largely agree with you here and the point you make about the System 1/System 8 approach. I think there is a massive gap in the market for a synth like control surface with enough knobs and faders to cover the more complicated VSTs out there. I'm not sure why 8 knobs has become the "standard" for a lot of the existing midi controllers. I have a System 1M and it's brilliant being able to swap out VST models and have the UI of the hardware itself indicate which controls work for the model you've loaded. Stroke of brilliance on Roland's behalf. They should sell a "dumb" System 8 as a controller that doesn't load the VSTs into the unit. They'd probably sell a truckload.
login wrote: 3.- The way Live does maps now, configuring the parameters is one of the best around and now you can save them. It needs the option to leave blank spaces and change parameter names, but apart from that I can't imagine what else it could be done, again the limit is more on the controller side.
This is one of the things I've been asking for. I currently use PrEditor to do this, but whilst it works (and I'm thankful to the Isotonik guys for writing it), it's a kludgey workaround having to run a 3rd party script to do something that should be a doddle for Ableton to stick into the software itself. In fact things like naming banks is obviously already possible as Live's internal synths and effects all have named parameter banks. Open it up to your users for gods sake!
login wrote: 4.- Push getting custom graphics is very nice and does improve the experience, Ableton could maybe offer developers a way to create custom graphics for their products.
I think they can probably already do this to some extent? There's certainly info about how to address the Push2 display in the github doco.
login wrote: I don't think Ableton is intentionally being "closed", the scripting system is quite open and there are many people offering scripts. Neither NI, both systems are suffering more from the lack of vision in controllers for synths.
Perhaps it's just a lack of vision. It's frustrating as a user of their products though. I've just bought a cheap second hand KKS61 to see if life is any better in the world of NI.

hoffman2k
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by hoffman2k » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am

cskracer wrote: This is one of the things I've been asking for. I currently use PrEditor to do this, but whilst it works (and I'm thankful to the Isotonik guys for writing it), it's a kludgey workaround having to run a 3rd party script to do something that should be a doddle for Ableton to stick into the software itself. In fact things like naming banks is obviously already possible as Live's internal synths and effects all have named parameter banks. Open it up to your users for gods sake!
They did, its called live.banks and is part of Live 10.

cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:12 pm

Really? Didn't see anything in the notes. You saying it's possible for me to name each bank of controls that are mapped in Push2 anything a I want? Not just bank1 bank2 bank3 etc?

Likewise can I choose not to have 8 parameters mapped to each bank? That would be progress indeed if possible.

hoffman2k
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by hoffman2k » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:46 pm

Image

cskracer
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by cskracer » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:02 pm

Interesting. I'll have to look into that. It reads as though it's only for Max for Live Devices not 3rd party VSTs, but I know zero about M4L so I could be completely misunderstanding what it does. Thanks for the info.

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