Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:34 pm

It's pretty simple really, ad hominum of any kind isn't a valid response to any argument or mild disagreement you have with anybody. In "real life" or on the internet. There's a big difference between discussing things you disagree or have issue with, and people you disagree with or have issues with. Granted it isn't always easy when someone more or less says, "I hate this thing you like!" The progression is commonly to "I hate you then!" :x

Machinesworking
Posts: 11100
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Location: Seattle

Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:08 pm

nathannn wrote: Hey, Machinesworking!

I Agree with your first point, but the second one I am having trouble understanding.

What daw does not come with a suite of plugins nowadays? Like you said with Logic or Cubase the upgrade cost is much cheaper than Live and they are both feature rich daws. Logic has offered many free upgrades and comes with some excellent plugins and a wave table synth.
A larger portion of Live's built in plug ins are from third parties, The Glue, AAS, and the recent acquisition of Cycling 74 all have added cost compared to Logic or Cubase etc.




I personally dont see a major upgrade when I view the new specs of Live 10. Live has a session view, but is lacking so many features that are essential to a modern daw. At this point it seems wiser just to use Live Standard for the session view and another daw for the real production work.

It really makes me wonder what the people at Ableton are thinking for the future if they are so behind in the present. Live could at least use a major overhal to its 17 year old UI. Users have posted mock ups to give Ableton Ideas and Ableton just adds a few curves here and there and flattens the transport.
Most upgrades from most DAW manufacturers are not extreme improvements but a series of incremental upgrades; if those upgrades don't appeal to you then the upgrade will seem weak. I didn't jump on 9 because a lot of things it brought did not appeal to me, but I will upgrade to 10 right away, because they do. :)
Still no editing of clips within session view.
Explain, that doesn't make any sense as a stand alone sentence.
Same UI that is no longer future or modern looking.
I think it's obvious by now Ableton aren't bending to anyones concerns with the GUI.
Acceptance is key.

No chord tracks
No Modern tempo mapping (look at cubase or melodyne)
No Time signature detection
No plug ins to add variation to the tempo
No ARA
NO custom commands
No Take Tracks
No pitch correction
There is time signature detection, if you mean tempo map taken from information embedded in the file I get you there.
Don't personally care about chord tracks, plug ins to add variation to the tempo, ARA etc. Pitch correction, or more involved pitch detection would be handy, but it's not the end of the world for me.
and then there is the lack of modern plugin content

No change to a very simple and strange take on amp simulation
No professional acoustic drum kit
No built in stereo reverb
No built in surround
No built in electronic drum kit.
No Modern Analog sounding synthesizers, AAS instruments were made in different era that required low cpu usage and really are not up to par
Almost every daw has a plug in that can emulate a ssl bus compressor.
Some people do find max for live to be very useful but should it really be used as a replacement for plugins that are integrated in other daws?
Not even slightly convincing acoustic instrument samples.
No change to the THREE band "Multi" band compression? Why couldn't they add unlimited bands?
No additional macro's added to racks
I generally don't use much embedded plug ins so I don't share those concerns, but I have to admit the new Wavetable and Echo are really very useful and I'm using them. Max for Live is miles above what other DAWs offer in terms of modular systems, I get it being a niche thing to some, but it is a huge feature to others in terms of Live VS other DAWs. Basically, if Max For Live isn't for you, and you do not look at the new plug ins, then you will think other DAWs are better etc. Don't know what to tell you? Live Suite offers a huge amount of plug in and sample content, it's not all useful to me, but to deny it's useful doesn't make too much sense to me.

No upgrade to the heavily used rack system

All I am really seeing in this upgrade is the addition of capture recording, some browser tweeks and minor changes to the ui.

Ableton Live was the first daw I really clicked with and I loved it, it was the future and continued to be innovative for years, but it seems like all that came to a halt with the release of Live 9. I really hope they dont go down the Propellerheads Path.
All of this comes down to what you personally find useful or not useful with this upgrade. Capture is cool to me, but I'm all in about the Push 2 usability in Rewire slave mode, SysEx, Wavetable and general tweaks to the UI. Would I have liked to see MPE and/or poly aftertouch, more key commands, and and simple way to expand the MIDI clip editor to full screen with a key command instead of click dragging every dammed time?? Yes, but for some reason that last one isn't much of a concern to most Live users while it drives me batshit crazy to have to resize a window all the time. So I accept that it's not happening in Live and when I do complex MIDI work that requires a lot of editing I use other DAWs...

It's still not Ableton's fault though, it's simply that they're not worried about the things I'm worried about because they still mostly please their user base. If an upgrade rolls out and no one jumps on it, they will get busy and add more content the next upgrade. Conversely they have to stay true to the vision they have, which isn't necessarily mine or yours. This is true of most DAWs, but Live has tried to stay "lean" in the sense that they've had their own vision of how you are to work with a DAW, every other DAW is based on a linear time frame and essentially chasing features from other DAWs, Ableton went in a different direction, and we end users liked that enough to buy into it, but we also want all DAW features we see from other DAWs as well. We want Live to be lean and fat at the same time... :x

pencilrocket
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by pencilrocket » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:08 am

Machinesworking wrote: simple way to expand the MIDI clip editor to full screen with a key command instead of click dragging every dammed time?? Yes, but for some reason that last one isn't much of a concern to most Live users while it drives me batshit crazy to have to resize a window all the time. So I accept that it's not happening in Live and when I do complex MIDI work that requires a lot of editing I use other DAWs...
I cant agree more.
Image

Stromkraft
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:44 am

Machinesworking wrote:It's pretty simple really, ad hominum of any kind isn't a valid response to any argument or mild disagreement you have with anybody.
I need to point out here that what have deleted from my own posts are "artes hominis indigentiam" suggestions, not ad hominum attacks. This happens almost on a daily basis here.

It's just that I, and all of us, can do this in a more friendly and constructive way without necessarily hurting anyone's feelings. Knowledge is after all the end objective and if this is shadowed by what is actually unnecessary, it's worth making an effort.

One method is to rely on facts and demonstrable proof. Both being something which I wish more disgruntled posters would rely on. Sometimes people need to express their dissatisfaction instead of seeking solutions. I find that somewhat frustrating, but that part can be ignored.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:48 am

Machinesworking wrote: Would I have liked to see MPE and/or poly aftertouch, more key commands, and and simple way to expand the MIDI clip editor to full screen with a key command instead of click dragging every dammed time?? Yes, but for some reason that last one isn't much of a concern to most Live users while it drives me batshit crazy to have to resize a window all the time.

It drives me batshit crazy as well and yet I'm using only Live for MIDI and I'm upgrading to 10. I guess it's possible to accept Live for what it is and yet want to see some natural developments. OK, unsubbing now.
Make some music!

RadioOnMars
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by RadioOnMars » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:26 pm

dna598 wrote:
Razz CE wrote:Yeah capture is amazing. Stuff like this is one of the reasons i love Ableton. Companies like to throw around the word innovative but this actually is. And it really coalesces with Ableton's philosophy of facilitating the free flow of creativity.
This feature has been in Logic since v5, which is when i used it. Maybe even before then.... Just saying. :D
The design of Live requires a different design for such a feature. One major reason is that in Logic, Capture doesn't do anything if transport is stopped. Here, it's running quite a complex algorithm to determine the tempo and beat grid for all the notes. Plus, as Ableton has Session mode and clips, containing content that can adjusted, when you are overdubbing or playing to existing material, it creates a clip that best represents what you've done. These might for example, match the clip settings of your overdubbing tracks, and make sure they could be launched in time together. In Arrangement, with transport playing, it most like Logic, although it keeps previous iterations of the loop because you can roll the clip back.

Bombastic
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Bombastic » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:27 am

weve been getting free updates for years in version 9, yes 10 looks a bit slim, but I feel like I need to pay Ableton for their great work over the years - so they can continue to do more..

however, now you mention it, an autotune/melodyne type thing in Ableton would be cool..

Stace30
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Stace30 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Bombastic wrote:however, now you mention it, an autotune/melodyne type thing in Ableton would be cool..
I would say +1 but I've just bought Melodyne 4 Essential!!
Live 10 Suite 10.1, M4L, MPC TOUCH MPC software v2.4, Reason 4, Komplete 11, i7 Laptop, 12g Ram, Win 10, Adam A7's & Genelec 8010's - Joined Forum in 2006.

oxygen23
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by oxygen23 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:59 am

RadioOnMars wrote:
dna598 wrote:
Razz CE wrote:Yeah capture is amazing. Stuff like this is one of the reasons i love Ableton. Companies like to throw around the word innovative but this actually is. And it really coalesces with Ableton's philosophy of facilitating the free flow of creativity.
This feature has been in Logic since v5, which is when i used it. Maybe even before then.... Just saying. :D
The design of Live requires a different design for such a feature. One major reason is that in Logic, Capture doesn't do anything if transport is stopped. Here, it's running quite a complex algorithm to determine the tempo and beat grid for all the notes. Plus, as Ableton has Session mode and clips, containing content that can adjusted, when you are overdubbing or playing to existing material, it creates a clip that best represents what you've done. These might for example, match the clip settings of your overdubbing tracks, and make sure they could be launched in time together. In Arrangement, with transport playing, it most like Logic, although it keeps previous iterations of the loop because you can roll the clip back.
Cubase had the same feature in past 20 years and it doesn't require transport to run.
I have to agree that for my expectation, after 5 years of developement Live 10 is major dissapointment, way-off what I expected after such a long period. I am not Bitwig user (yet, currently demo-ing) but I have to agree that Bitwig already has all the major features of Live 10 and much more. Regarding their subscription policy, nobody is forced to update, you can skip entire year and update whenever you feel that program advanced for your taste to upgrade.
Currently, only better thing in Live compared to Bitwig is Simpler, and new Simpler update for Live 9 is worth more than entire Live 10 list of changes (especially automation changes which are downgrade IMHO).
Now, regarding Capture, if you are on Mac, you can do it with any DAW with Capture MIDI app, which is suprisignly stunning and works better than native implementation 8O .
I am using it with Logic and Live and tested it with Bitwig, too - it works perfectly.
I prefer it over Logic's own implementation because you don't need to run transport and you can have multiple slots of captured MIDI. App is also really cheap http://www.audiocr.com/

SuburbanThug
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by SuburbanThug » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:06 pm

Crazy that people will complain about the UI still, haha. Hey, some of us have valid feature requests so lay off the UI thing, okay? This is why we have silly looking hammers these days. Some designer who's hardly used a hammer is like, "How can we improve the look and feel of this hammer?" UNNECESSARY! Yes, I am using all caps.

It would be cool if we could break out the native plug-ins when we need to look at two things at once. I'm always wishing I could do this with Tuner when working with my modular gear. Anybody? Bueller?

miyaru
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by miyaru » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:56 pm

Today I got acces to Live 10 Beta. It is certainly not obsolete!!! Works like a charm, I like the new synth and plugins, and also capture. Is it a lot of money to update? Is it to expensive? Once I have the money, I will upgrade, that's for shure. I had an expensive year musically: I bought Live 9 suite, Push 2 , Presonus Eris E8 monitors, an ESI MoCo monitorcontroller and a new PC in 2017.......

I think personally it is worth the upgrade, it has just got better. There are always reasons to nag about it, and the point is you have to have the money for it, not everybody does.

I think Push 2 excellerate in Live 10, and makes more sense then ever before. I played with for an hour, and will work with for many hours the next few days, and will chime in if I find something beautifull or strange with Live 10. But for now, I'm convinced - I want it!
Greetings from Miyaru.

Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Saffire Pro40, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Korg R3, NI Massive, Air Hybrid 3, Rob Papen's Predator 2, Sonarworks Reference 4 and Scaler.

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:28 am

miyaru wrote: I think Push 2 excellerate in Live 10, and makes more sense then ever before.
This is key! if I was ever looking at Bitwig because of MPE support or it's much more intuitive modulation system, I'm not now.
Push 2 and Live 10 really feel like hardware in a way that only maybe Maschine Studio and v3 can match.

miyaru
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by miyaru » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:06 am

Altough not the cheapest combination, Live (suite) and Push (2) make life so easy while composing. If it wasn't for Push2, I never had made the step from Cubase (which I used for 20yrs or so). One small youtube movie made me do the switch, and yes spent a lot of money in one year.

I feel in Live 10, you need the computerscreen less and less, which is a good thing, as it only distracts from making music.
Greetings from Miyaru.

Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Saffire Pro40, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Korg R3, NI Massive, Air Hybrid 3, Rob Papen's Predator 2, Sonarworks Reference 4 and Scaler.

Jarvisimon
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by Jarvisimon » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:05 pm

Just got my invitation to beta test today so have had a quick look at new instruments and effects. Definitely not obsolete but I am underwhelmed as i've already made my own work-arounds to many of the issues it's addressed.

I was thinking about going for the Suite but it's too pricey. Other than Max4Live, I already have a lot of plug-ins doing similar work.

Sorry Ableton but my wallet is closed for this update. Maybe in another 3 years time with Live 11.

SiLi
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Re: Ableton 10 is obsolet!

Post by SiLi » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:42 am

Totally agree!! :evil:

It's more of a downgrade than an upgrade...I mean now you need to press A everytime you want to switch to automation view and press M if you want to use the keyboard as midi input...
Then there's the clips...I can't really select the right fade when 2 fades are close together. And the new size for dragging a clip (upper second half of the clip) is just making
it even worse!

I'm not even going to mention all the other stuff...but I mean creating a new small synth and not even adding Ctrl+Click Muli Selection...common??

Please Ableton!? Do you even look at the beta suggestions?
:|

Please contact me Ableton we need to fix the whole thing.

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