OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

Take responsibility for rogue members?

Muslims in general should rise up and cure their society
30
43%
Muslims have no responsibilty to manage the tiny minority of crazy muslims
40
57%
 
Total votes: 70

Komplex
Posts: 861
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:27 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Post by Komplex » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:48 pm

anonymouse wrote:I was born into Christianity, and until my mid teens I would have classed myself as a Catholic. But, like perhaps a huge number of so called Christians, I really a pretty ignorant about the Bible and religion.

Pointing a finger at Islam and saying it is an aggressive religion seems ridiculous. Not because I know anything about it, but because I do know that the Bible is full of supremacist dogma and bigotry. Most Christians have never really read or studied the Bible, but it is widely accepted that it is a hodge-podge of myth, legend and folklore derived from many sources. The "Jesus" character reflects about 30 different prophets that lived 2 and 3000 years ago. But many of the preachings of the new testament are quite aggressive and elitist.

All in all, I cannot support the Bible as a truly good book. It is too full of contradictions and negativity towards other creeds and cultures.

Mankind's need for religion is a fascinating phenomenon. As civilisation develops further over the next 500 years it will be interesting to see whether the world reaches a greater level of enlightenment, whereby the synthetic religions of today and past centuries are seen as an anachronism. Or whether religion becomes even stronger than it is today.

For me, atheism is the perfect state for the globe. Dressing up statues, singing songs, wearing religious jewellry and believing in such fantasies as The Rapture etc will one day be read about in history books as curiousities of an earlier civilisation.

We have a long way to go as a species before reaching that level of spirituality.
I'm in your boat and I don't think it will happen any time soon. Religion has always been around and is far too useful for many people (evil and good) to abandon. As long as it is passed down through each generation, it will continue to expand unless there is a sudden worldwide shift against it.

MrYellow
Posts: 1887
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:10 am
Contact:

Post by MrYellow » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:06 am

If pushed I could go find 50 quotes from every religious text from every
religion to state that they are a "war religion"...... Just because someone's
told you about a single quote doesn't mean that's the whole basis of the
religion.

Humans War. Religions reflect that.

No one religion is a war religion.

-Ben

Hypomixolydian
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:54 pm

Post by Hypomixolydian » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:41 am

anonymouse wrote:.

Pointing a finger at Islam and saying it is an aggressive religion seems ridiculous. Not because I know anything about it, but because I do know that the Bible is full of supremacist dogma and bigotry. Most Christians have never really read or studied the Bible, but it is widely accepted that it is a hodge-podge of myth, legend and folklore derived from many sources. The "Jesus" character reflects about 30 different prophets that lived 2 and 3000 years ago. But many of the preachings of the new testament are quite aggressive and elitist.

All in all, I cannot support the Bible as a truly good book. It is too full of contradictions and negativity towards other creeds and cultures.
I am not claiming to be an expert and as far as my own stand point on religion goes I would say I am agnostic, but this much I know anonymouse, your statements are totally way off the mark. Most "true" Christians would definitely not say that it is a "hodge podge of myth, legend and folklore etc...." In fact the preachings of the New Testament are far from aggressive and elitist!!!! Nor does it have negativity towards other creeds and cultures. I would love to know how you came to these conclusions.
But I really don't want to get into a philosophical dispute about religion or rub people the wrong way. I would like this to remain a friendly forum and unfortunately politics and religion debates can bring the worst out of people. Actually, I hope this thread dies. I doubt very few here would know enough about religion or metaphysics to justify their opinions on the subject.
So I suggest lets leave this issue alone and move on to other things.

anonymouse
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:33 am

Post by anonymouse » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:59 am

Astral, I get you. But I feel very uncomfortable with people saying "let's not discuss this uncomfortable topic because it is awkward to deal with".

Just to answer two points though, and believe me I know very little about this ...

(1) I read a good book about 10 years ago, I think it was called "The Dead Sea Scrolls" (or something like that) It was very well researched and was about the hunt for the Holy Grail, or the Ark of the Covenant, I can't quite remember which. But it went into a lot of depth describing how the history of Jesus, and the stories of his life are largely identical to tales of many other prophets of that era, and from centuries before, who were knocking around that region.
I'll try to get the right name of that book if you are interested. It was credible and the author is well respected and had done his homework

(2) As regards the negativity in the Bible, I heard a really good audio blog/podcast recently put together by an American girl who decided to really read the Bible to see what it meant. And even her amateur review came up with countless strange, contradictory and sinister tracts in the Bible, it really made me devalue the merit of this book even more than I had previously suspected. Again I will try to find this blog if you are interested.

These are only two points of reference, and by no means authoritative. But they tie in with everything else I have ever had the time to learn about Christianity. I am sure all other religions are also riddled with contradictions and the obvious fingerprints of the humans who first invented these books.

Another example is Scientology - it may have been concocted by a nutcase SF writer, but what sort of credentials did the authors of the Bible have? Poverty? Literacy? Hidden agendas? Power lust? Philosophy? Whatever they were they were the attributes and natural failings of any human.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11141
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:17 am

Christianity is just as barbaric and into forceful conversions to it's religion as the Muslim faith. Think about it, here in America, George Bush won based on his status as a Christian. A good amount of Christians I know are for the war in Iraq, and the more you talk to them, the more "freedom" means large numbers of Christians over in Iraq trying to convert the "heathens".

BTW the muslim faith gets a reputation as war like simply because Mohammed fought some wars, but people tend to forget that it was reported that he killed far less people than in "normal" war....

How has Jesus helped America to be less war like? So far it seems that Iraq attacked America a grand total of zero times, and we attacked twice, deposing the leader the second time. War is war, whether fought for "good reasons or not. War kills men women and children, not just "soldiers".

disco45
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:47 am
Location: London

Post by disco45 » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:21 am

I'm probably putting my head on the block here, but how can any sane, rationale person believe in any organised religious text now....it's utterly ridiculous....when are we going to move on in this world and dismiss this this rubbish for what it is...

Machinesworking
Posts: 11141
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:29 am

disco45 wrote:I'm probably putting my head on the block here, but how can any sane, rationale person believe in any organised religious text now....it's utterly ridiculous....when are we going to move on in this world and dismiss this this rubbish for what it is...
I don't know? The only consolation is that it took almost two thousand years for democracy to catch on after an initial try, and we still don't have it right...... :?

disco45
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:47 am
Location: London

Post by disco45 » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:35 am

now that's very funny and incisive! :D

Pitch Black
Posts: 6451
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:18 am
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Pitch Black » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:59 am

What facinates me is that humankind seeks community of worship.
"Put down your Gods and come and worship ours".

Its really weird. If "God" is above us, any spiritual person would agree that there are FAR MORE things that unite us as people than divide us.

We are ALL ONE under The-Supreme-Force-That-Created-Us-Whatever-You-Percieve-That-To-Be.

As an interesting sidenote, the word "religion" comes from the Latin re ligare . Ligare means "joining" or "connecting" as in ligaments, so re ligare is to re-join, to re-connect.

To re-connect. To re-join. Integration, call it what you like. It always astounds me, the human ability to miss the point.

We cannot as a species hope to "know the mind of God" until we know the sum total of HUMAN experience first. Until we work that out we can't hope to get to the next level.

I mean... Who do these upstart apes think they are?

Love,
P
Last edited by Pitch Black on Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hypomixolydian
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:54 pm

Post by Hypomixolydian » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:09 am

Machinesworking wrote:Christianity is just as barbaric and into forceful conversions to it's religion as the Muslim faith. Think about it, here in America, George Bush won based on his status as a Christian. A good amount of Christians I know are for the war in Iraq, and the more you talk to them, the more "freedom" means large numbers of Christians over in Iraq trying to convert the "heathens".
How has Jesus helped America to be less war like? .
People hiding under the banner of Christianity has certainly caused a lot of fuck ups in this world dating back to the crusades (no doubt even before) or Galileo when the church tried to suppress his discoveries. However, human nature is a fallen one and people get it wrong most of the time especially when it comes to metaphysical matters. Passions run high and everybody thinks they know best. Unfortunately, many people have misinterpreted what they have read when it comes to these issues. Christianity itself is not a barbaric or forceful religion, it is the people who misinterpret it who are at fault. Plus, many people call themselves Christian, but in fact the opposite is true.

anonymouse wrote:Astral, I get you. But I feel very uncomfortable with people saying "let's not discuss this uncomfortable topic because it is awkward to deal with".
I said this because I doubt very much that people here know enough on the subject, which therefore makes them inadequate to deal with the issues effectively and with authority.

anonymouse wrote:
(1) I read a good book about 10 years ago, I think it was called "The Dead Sea Scrolls" (or something like that) It was very well researched and was about the hunt for the Holy Grail, or the Ark of the Covenant, I can't quite remember which. But it went into a lot of depth describing how the history of Jesus, and the stories of his life are largely identical to tales of many other prophets of that era, and from centuries before, who were knocking around that region.
I'll try to get the right name of that book if you are interested. It was credible and the author is well respected and had done his homework

I have heard of the book (though I don't know the full details of it), but it is the view of one man trying to sell books and from what I remember his arguments were full of holes. The story of Christ has been studied by scholars for a good 2000 years. There are historical records that verify the existence of Christ.

anonymouse wrote:

Another example is Scientology - it may have been concocted by a nutcase SF writer, but what sort of credentials did the authors of the Bible have? Poverty? Literacy? Hidden agendas? Power lust? Philosophy? Whatever they were they were the attributes and natural failings of any human.

The authors of the Bible would say their credentials come from a "divine" source.

But again let me reiterate that I am no expert on the subject and I don't want to upset or annoy anyone here. I am just telling you what I know and what I have heard from very knowledgeable people on these issues. My own position is that I am an agnostic and again I say I hope this thread fritters away (though I suppose I am not helping much), because many of us here can't speak with authority on these issues.

disco45
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:47 am
Location: London

Post by disco45 » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:18 am

...you can't be an authority because like everyone else you are guessing about text that has been passed along and manipulated for thousands of years now....let's just drop it.

The Bible, the Quran, or whatever...it's a good story with some good messages...but please let's not base the future and divide people on what is nothing but a story

Hypomixolydian
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:54 pm

Post by Hypomixolydian » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:28 am

disco45 wrote:...you can't be an authority because like everyone else you are guessing about text that has been passed along and manipulated for thousands of years now....let's just drop it.

The Bible, the Quran, or whatever...it's a good story with some good messages...but please let's not base the future and divide people on what is nothing but a story
That's what I said. I said I am not an expert on the subject. I quote:
Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
But again let me reiterate that I am no expert on the subject and I don't want to upset or annoy anyone here. I am just telling you what I know and what I have heard from very knowledgeable people on these issues. My own position is that I am an agnostic and again I say I hope this thread fritters away (though I suppose I am not helping much), because many of us here can't speak with authority on these issues.

swpspce
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:39 pm

Post by swpspce » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:37 am

nothing to see here - keep moving, please...

Forge - you seem to have forgotten The Cathars - The Albigensian Crusade...and that Christianity was forced onto the peoples of many a nation...
Last edited by swpspce on Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Apple PowerBook 12" 1Ghz 512mb Ram...ReMOTE 25, Live 4 beta 4, Kontakt, Reaktor

DJSK
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 10:23 am
Location: Florida U.S.
Contact:

Post by DJSK » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:40 am

This post doesn't have anything to do with ableton. There is a place for post like this and I agree this is not it.
Last edited by DJSK on Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

disco45
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:47 am
Location: London

Post by disco45 » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:41 am

no worries. I'm just tired of people being manipulated and fighting and speculating over crap that doesn't exist and ain't never existed

Post Reply