OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

[kay101011]

You are not a murderer because you are a muslim.
You are not a good guy because you are a christian.

Other powers are at stake:
* Economy
* Power and fear
* Opression and revange

Hitler came partly to power because of some feeling that Germany had been "stabbed in the back".
And because some powerful men thought they would benefit from supporting him and then get rid of him - but they got stuck with him.

And take a look at a map, look carefully on these straight lines in the Middle east, in Arabia, in Africa - who drew them, and for what reason?

I'm not saying we are to blame ourselves for all this.
But if we want to defend or protect us, we should really think about the historical, economical etc base for it all.

But still, in some sense "we" created a monster.
I would say the expansion of colonies in the 17'th hundred and the lack of taking care of that afterwards, is something to remember.

Which does not take away the responsability from any terrorist.
But an acceptance of these things may help getting things a bit better in the future.

// C

1000000% agreement

[Sales Dude McBoob]

My co-worker (a fellow McBoob) just read through this thread and he would like me to tell you:

"Be-Quiet, there is obviously no end to any of this useless talk. You are speaking of books that were written by one-track minded religious (leaders?/ or followers?). We will know the truth about it all when our time comes. So until then turn to the person to the left of you shake thier hand, and grab an instrument or a fader and do something creative. Time is not something to spend wastefully, embrace it, be happy, and believe what you want, don't critisize others for thier beliefs. AND FOR GOD'S (whomever you choose, if one at all)SAKE SMILE!!!!!!!!

[Hypomixolydian]

In fact, most religions who have matured through the ages do preach peace, and never war. Islam preaches sometimes peace, and sometimes war. But if Islam preaches both, which interpretation is the right one? Is it right to be at peace? Or is it right to be at war?

Islam teaches that to fight for a just cause is OK. Makes sense to me.

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

If you consider these quotes to be for a just cause, then OK. So killing non believers is a just cause is it? For the hundreth time, it is fanatics who are using passages like this to justify their actions. The majority of Muslims don't buy it.

In fact, if both interpretations are true, an interesting paradox arises. While christianity states that non-christians cannot reach salvation (although modern Catholic teachings have denied this too), christianism doesn't state that you should kill non-christians.

Uh? What were the Crusades about?

As I have said in a previous post, the crusades were a reaction to an aggressive Islamic invasion.

Hebraism, which is surely theoretically less peaceful than christianism, has nonetheless a history of patience towards oppression, instead of a history of violence. Just think of the Holocaust.

Israel doesn't strike me as a bastion of tolerance.

[/quote]

If you have been hated by everyone in the region for the last 5000 years and who are hellbent on your destruction, I wonder how tolerant you would be?

In fact, one of the interesting aspects of Islam, is that it conquered aggressively most of the then known world, while Christianism spread through peaceful conversion until the crusades (and the crusades were a reaction to Islamic invasion), and Hebraism through migration. The crusades killed far more christians than muslims anyway. But the crusaders themselves were terribly misguided as are the fundamentalists are today.

OK so the muslims are responsible for all the pagans murdered in northern Europe?

I am not quite sure what your point is here, sorry????????

Again let me say that I am no expert on the matter ( though I know a little) and my position is one of agnosticism. All I am stating are facts and I have no intention to incite hatred or whatever. That is clearly said in my previous posts. I should also make clear that I am not trying to reduce Islam to those quotes I mentioned. Islam is a legitimate religion and I am not in a position to judge it and I am in no way attacking it.

Yes you are, you are stating that the religion itself is more violent than Christianity.

Yes I am what? An expert on the matter? Well no, but I have a little knowledge. Trying to incite hatred?? Definitely NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Am I pointing out that Islam is more violent than Christianity? Perhaps. All I am pointing out is that fundamentalist groups are using these violent passages in the Koran to justify their acts. I have said this in previous posts. These passages and any other that bear resemblance are used by terrorist groups to recruit new "soldiers" as a justification to their cause. I also used these quotes in response to a previous post who argued that Islam is a peaceful religion and I wanted to show that statement isn't quite true. I will repeat again, the majority of muslims I know don't buy into that shit.

The point I was making in previous posts is that fundamentalists are using those quotes to legitimise their murders, while most muslims don't buy into that shit. Also to contradict the statement that islam is a religion of peace, when there are quotes like that written in the koran.

There are plenty of ugly parts of every religious texts IMO, but when you start trying to justify your belief that the Koran is a violent text, and then try to state that you're not attacking Islam....

I am not attacking Islam. Read what I said above.

I think you're just a bit less tolerant of Islam than you are of Christianity, that's all I see here. Even suicide bombers, well you join the Green Beret, and your chances of coming home alive in full on war, are pretty slim. Of course then you can argue that young men think they are invincible, but what does that say about the people and society who send those young men in?

Perhaps it's true that I am a bit less tolerant of people who distort religious text to justify their actions. As you say yourself, what does it say about society, in this case terrorist groups who recruit young men to do their dirty work?

I'm Atheist to the core BTW, Agnostics are just Christians in doubt, according to my Christian friends....

No, I am an agnostic in the real sense of the word.

Once again I will reiterate that I mean no disrespect to anyone whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if this debate continues, I hope it remains friendly and civil.

[astromass]

make some music now, mates
people will hate each other and will kill each other forever, it's just how it is...now go boot up live.

[Machinesworking]

\Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

If you consider these quotes to be for a just cause, then OK. So killing non believers is a just cause is it? For the hundreth time, it is fanatics who are using passages like this to justify their actions. The majority of Muslims don't buy it.

Yeah probably because their interpretation is more like this one.

(66):9 – “O Prophet, struggle (jahada III) with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them; their refuge shall be Gehenna—an evil homecoming!”

Notice how different the two are? You feel comfortable proclaiming a certain interpretation of Islam in order to justify your view that Christianity is somehow less interpretable. There are english interpretations of the Koran that paint it in many hues from what I can tell.....
I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to show you that we as humans tends to filter things through our own belief systems, and fear is a motivating factor in what we choose to believe. I am wary of any viewpoint that paints any religious doctrine as somehow better or worse than another. People interpret (literally) ideas in general based on their own set of prejudices, and hand them out as fact.

More than the religion of the region, the simple fact that England and the USA have consistently meddled in the politics and economic stability of pretty much every country in the middle east is a deciding factor in the terrorist attacks we see.

We could also say the being catholic, and having a deeper appreciation of the old testament than protestants was the reason for IRA terrorism, but it would completely ignore the 800 odd years of English rule, and the tyrannical nature of it at times. Almost every Irish person I met from Ireland said that the whole thing had little to do with religion, but that didn't stop newspapers in America from painting it out that way.

[computo]

correction: People will always be able to manipulate other peoples hatred, in order to create false impressions of pending threats.

You people are pleebs. Arabs were the masterminds of 911 as much as George W Bush is a compentent world leader. All you hate-filled pro-israelis are being played as much as the next hate-filled pro-binladen Arab.

If you want to find the perpatrators of a crime, you examine who gains what. Not just who committed the crimes (which in the case of all of these events, has not really happened...did you know that 7 of the supposed 911 hijackers have shown up alive and well, trying to clear their names??) but the people who profitted most.

I suggest you all examine the Put-options placed on the towers and surrounding buildings, and the questionable circumstances surrounding the "pulling" of Tower 7.

That is, if you're actually interested in figuring out what happened...

Anonymouse and some of these other people, however, seem to be FAR more interested in stirring hatred, agitating points of complete irrelevance.

For them...Have fun fighting your fathers fights, you ignorant schmucks.

[Angstrom]

the crusades were a reaction to an aggressive Islamic invasion.

actually the crusades were started for numerous reasons .. that was the public reason.

reason #1 : split between the eastrn and western Catholic church which at the time were equal. In Rome and to France the Pope ruled - and in Constantinople the (the holy lands) east ..the Emperor. Pope Gregory wanted supreme control so excommunicated the Emperor (Henry) and Henry denounced the Pope.

reason #2 Frankish knights were uneasy at how all the slaying the church required them to do would weigh up with god,each night often funded an entire monastery to pray for his sins. It was becoming an issue.

what happened was that the Pope said he had received a note from the Emperor asking for help to 'drive back the Turks from Byzantium'
"Byzantium" you say " where's that then?" Iraq that's where.

The Pope said that any knight who drove the Turks out of Christian Byzantium would receive absolution for their sins.

It was a ploy to get his troops into Constantinople and try to topple the Emperor. The Emperor insisted these troops weren't required .. but the Pope sent them anyway. But ... this being the middle ages(ish) the Frankish troops decided to continue and 'liberate' Jerusalem from it's peaceful existance.

Christians on pilgrimage had visited arabic Jerusalem peacefully for years... until the Pope's Knights arrived and killed everyone!

check out the true history of Richard the Lion Heart for more 'laughs', he hated jews and only visited England twice . One of those was to try and sell London to finance his debts!!

[computo]

Or maybe, like the past 2000 years, the christians are trying to take back control of the land of "Jesus's " birth or the lack thereof.

If you think about it, The church has every interest in keeping the Middle East in a constant state of war. Then, researchers and archeologists cant get in and prove that there was NO Jesus, nor gain access to the true relics from the beginnings of man, which may tell other "tales".

[Angstrom]

Very hard for an Archeologist to prove there isn't something buried!
they mainly specialize in 'aha, I've found something' or their other option is 'hmm, nothing yet'
Especially as JC's big trick was not being buried you expect a lot !

Also, The Israelis do have Archeologists of their own and they dont exactly have any vested interest in this Jesus guy to cover for him. In fact they'd do quite well out of a 'JC didn't exist' story.
They should do it, just to piss off Mel Gibson

[smutek]

I agree that the question is ludicrous.

To say that the Muslim community has the responsibility to control its extreme elements is the same thing as saying citizens of western nations bear the responsibility to control extrme elements of their government or its offensive policies.

I vehemently oppose the current American administration and its policies yet it is completely beyond my abilities, as an individual, to control what they do. (And as a side note, given the power of the right and the extreme divide between people here, i have begun to give up hope altogether.)

The rational that I am responsible for controling the behavior of my goverment, and it is the same principle as stated in the original question, makes me, and other innocent citizens of western nations, legitimate targets in the eyes of extremists.

I wonder how many of those killed in the London attacks were bitterly opposed to the war in iraq and policy towards the middle east and the third world in general?

But in the eye's of extremists they are legitimate targets because they live in a democratic society and are responsible for influencing their elected officials policy decisions.

And I wonder how many innocent muslems are locked away at guantanomo, or secret prisons in afghanastan, uzbekistan, egypt, dubai, etc. simply because they are muslim and perhaps know someone who knows someone who for whatever reason is on a terrorist watch list?

But in the eye's of western extremeists, the American right wing in-particular, the detention, interrogation, and torture of innocents is acceptable in a war against an enemy defined only as "arab" or "muslim".

I am not saying you are this extreme, or even that you hold this opinion, but it is this type of simplistic, mis-informed, and ignorant type of mentality that breeds hate on all sides.

[Hypomixolydian]

\Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

If you consider these quotes to be for a just cause, then OK. So killing non believers is a just cause is it? For the hundreth time, it is fanatics who are using passages like this to justify their actions. The majority of Muslims don't buy it.

Yeah probably because their interpretation is more like this one.

(66):9 – “O Prophet, struggle (jahada III) with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them; their refuge shall be Gehenna—an evil homecoming!”

Notice how different the two are? You feel comfortable proclaiming a certain interpretation of Islam in order to justify your view that Christianity is somehow less interpretable. There are english interpretations of the Koran that paint it in many hues from what I can tell.....
I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to show you that we as humans tends to filter things through our own belief systems, and fear is a motivating factor in what we choose to believe. I am wary of any viewpoint that paints any religious doctrine as somehow better or worse than another. People interpret (literally) ideas in general based on their own set of prejudices, and hand them out as fact.
.

I take your point. What you are saying I guess is true with regard to how we filter things through our own belief systems.
So, I will apologise if I have rubbed anyone the wrong way, misquoted or taken stuff out of context. I really don't have any intentions whatsoever to annoy, upset or incite bad feelings on anyone. I just like a good debate (as long as it remains civil).
But, I am going to bow out of this debate. One reason is I take your point Machinesworking and also because this is so time consuming!!

So again my apologies if I have annoyed anyone!!!

[smutek]

That said, ... if the group under the microscope was half drunk white guys of Irish background .. I wouldn't be upset if I was pulled aside... that's how it works. Profiling works for a reason .... You find me in a bar after 3 am ... I'm pretty sure you can "profile" me as drunk .. duh . it works.

just my $.02

You say you would not be upset at being pulled aside eh.


Suppose for a minute that instead of being irish you are syrian and living in Canada.

You were born in syria but moved to canada when you were 9. You are a Canadian citizen and have lived there for 21 years. You are married and have two children.

You take a business trip to the United States and on your way home you are stopped at the airport and questioned by security. Everything seems like routine profiling until the FBI shows up.

You ask for a lawyer but you are told that since you are not an american citizen you do not have the right to see an attorney or make a phone call to your wife.

You are an acquaintance of someone who knows someone who knows someone else who for whatever reason, legitimate or not, is on a terrorist watch-list. But you do not know this because you are not told why you are being held.

After about ten hours of questioning your fear turns to terror as another group of Americans, who do not identify themselves, show up. They shackle you, load you aboard a gulf stream jet and transport you to syria.

Once in syria you are turned over to syrian intelligence. You are tortured, questioned and asked to admit that you are a member of Al-Qaeda. The worst is the third day where you are tortured and beaten for 20 hours straight. And even though you are not you of-course tell your interrogators that you are indeed a member of Al-Qaeda and are personally responsible for every attack in the world. Everybody does, they always do.

After your confession you are confined to a cell which you call the coffin. You call it this because it is shaped like a coffin and is scarcely larger than one. The only light comes in through a small set of bars at the top. You are confined here for 10 months.

After 10 months you are cleared of terrorist affiliations by the syrian government and are released. You are allowed to return home to Canada, to your wife and children who think you are dead.



I bet you'd mind that.

That is a true story.

Some of you may be interested in watching this documentary.

[montrealbreaks]

I agree that the question is ludicrous.

To say that the Muslim community has the responsibility to control its extreme elements is the same thing as saying citizens of western nations bear the responsibility to control extrme elements of their government or its offensive policies.

I vehemently oppose the current American administration and its policies yet it is completely beyond my abilities, as an individual, to control what they do.

But dude, it IS your responsibility to call a spade a spade. If you think the current US administration is bullshit, then call it as such. Good! That's a start, that's what this whole poll was about. Western Civilization is starting to question our own realpolitik.

Personally, I don't agree with you totally - I find some things about our current governments negative, but others quite positive.

All the poll was asking was whether it is morally incumbent upon muslims WHO DISAGREE with this terrorism to call "bullshit" when they see it. There's no "left wing" or "anti-establishment" movement in islam, not to the same degree that exists in Western Civilization. This poll question makes perfect sense if you reverse it and stop being so overly sensitive to political correctness;

Citizens of the West in general should rise up and purge their governments
vs
Citizens of the West have no responsibilty to manage the their governments behavious

Obviously, if you are concerned about the direction your society is taking you, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to speak out. Same goes for Muslims, and that's all this poll question was asking.

At least that's my take on it. I voted that your "Average Joe" (and "Average Muhammad" alike) has a responsibility to rise up and take on the idiots in their midst.

[smutek]

But dude, it IS your responsibility to call a spade a spade. If you think the current US administration is bullshit, then call it as such. Good! That's a start, that's what this whole poll was about. Western Civilization is starting to question our own realpolitik.

Personally, I don't agree with you totally - I find some things about our current governments negative, but others quite positive.

All the poll was asking was whether it is morally incumbent upon muslims WHO DISAGREE with this terrorism to call "bullshit" when they see it. There's no "left wing" or "anti-establishment" movement in islam, not to the same degree that exists in Western Civilization. This poll question makes perfect sense if you reverse it and stop being so overly sensitive to political correctness;

Obviously, if you are concerned about the direction your society is taking you, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to speak out. Same goes for Muslims, and that's all this poll question was asking.

At least that's my take on it. I voted that your "Average Joe" (and "Average Muhammad" alike) has a responsibility to rise up and take on the idiots in their midst.

Yes. I do disagree, I do speak out, I place phone calls to my elected officials, I try my best to stay informed, I vote, and again, I speak out.

At the end of the day it does absolutely nothing to influence what happens in Washington. But alas, you are talking to a guy who believes the highest level of his geovernment has been co-opted by the military industrial complex and big business.

does that mean I will give up? ofcourse not.

But does that make me responsible for the policies of my Government? No it does not. By speaking out and by letting my opinions and belief be known both to friends and to my elected officials I feel I am doing my part.

I am not responsible for what happens in washington and I am not responsible for the decisions made by the Bush administration. And again, I am one of the people who whole heartedly believes the last two elections were stolen.

I believe the democratic process in america is dying and will soon be dead.

And also, the question was not is it their responsibility to speak out but is it their responsibility to control the problem. There are quite a few prominent muslims who speak out against violence. It obviously has made very little difference. Are they still responsible for the actions of extremeists? Do they even posess the capability to deter these groups from their actions. I think not so. If anything they have become targets of extremism.

And I fear the same thing will happen here in America. Already, among many right wing thinkers I know, dissent is equated with support of terrorism and anti-Americansim. It is scary.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

"Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism". ~ Thomas Jefferson

[12micsn1]

Why dont the Arab leaders of the world denouce terrorism? All this violence coming from the Arab world an we never hear Arab leaders say what needs to be said about all of this evil taking place upon us. Are the people of the west all considered infidels? Where are the stand-up righteous people anymore or do they no longer exist? Something is seriously wrong between the Western and Arab world as know it. These souless terrorist are brainwashed on a currupt idealology an its spreading like a disease to the weakiest hearts and minds. The return is death not the gift of life that the true God gives all of us. For the gift of life God gives all of us its no longer possible to be tolerant to those who want to take it from you. Your freedoms will one day have to be sacrificed for your life because some people dont care about theres enough for you yours. Where will you trully stand when you are being judge to live or die?