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 Post subject: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:46 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Sydney, Australia
Ok so previously, those who use foot controllers for live performance, usually kludged along with midi translator, vbs, whatever mac equivalents and the we got by. I have just ported my Pure Data patch to windows 10 and all went well...EXCEPT...sendkeys is now removed so the input_event is broken and no longer can send ctrl +z to focus window...

Anyone know how to get around that OR
Ableton...please please please...unless I missed something, the forum is littered with requests for a remote for Undo...why is it not possible, will it be possible...?

Thanks in advance
M.


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am
Posts: 2907
Bome MIDI translator is a good tool for taking MIDI events and turning them into any other events (Other MIDI, Keystroke, Serial, Macro, Program Launch). That's what I use.

Never used Send Keys. I use AutoIT for macro stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thanks...appreciate your reply. There are of course the obvious utils like that but I have actually spent a fair bit of time using Florian Bome's utility...and spoke with him about expanding the target of keystrokes to window handles etc as is done in autoit, many years back (10). You do know Translator needs window focus for keystrokes right? So you cant use other interfaces during a performance without click the screen back to focus otherwise it stops working. This is why remote MIDI for undo has been a LONG time coming.

Ask yourself this; why should users need to implement another utility for the sake of 1 core looping remote control requirement? Cmon...the basics of a looping pedal should be available.

Its gets complicated very quickly when you are trying to do basic timing based behavioural stuff in Translator Pro...but you may not be aware of Pure Data...kind of like cross platform Max; it has all those functions already in it and has worked well up til now. What Im saying is that the api for w10 has been rewritten, so many of the code implementations across languages have been affected...thats why Im here...the last time was 10 years ago on this forum as I had a solution working all this time.

I have programmed a lot of midi in vbs using midiox/autoitx.dll which has some real muscle but its unreliable for midi compared to pure data...solid as...really the bomb!

In W7/W8 I had a very solid and simple way of using Pure Data and Live...just one behaviour cluster added so much simplicity

eg
A single foot pedal to (easily) record/undo clip AND control increment vol up and down of current track on a 16track * 8 scene matrix...(on a rig kontrol 3!)

Just try and do that with translator pro and you will quickly understand...along with the window focus issues is a temporary approach

BTW Autoitx.dll uses a send keys like, api handle...I wouldnt be surprised if its affected but I could be wrong. I just dont want to use vbs with midi.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am
Posts: 2907
Fair enough then, sounds like it should be an easy one for you to solve.

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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:11 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Sydney, Australia
jestermgee wrote:
Fair enough then, sounds like it should be an easy one for you to solve.

Getting Ableton to add midi remote for undo...easy to solve? Hmmm...maybe not...a lof of people have asked for a long time...wouldnt you prefer to not have to implement extra tool just to do that?
How do you get around the focus window issue?

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:45 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 am
Posts: 2907
I don't have an issue with window focus, Live is typically in focus when i want to do edit commands from my MCU and if I needed it to have focus I'd just create a tool in autoIT to focus when I needed. you sound like you have enough know how to work out a solution. If you know of both Bomes and AutoIT why not create a simple script that can focus and send CTRL+Z then trigger that however you like. Bomes would be one way.

I have no issues coming up with tools to do tasks. I've seen the request to allow midi map of undo/redo a couple of times but nowhere enough to say it's been requested lots.

Maybe M4L has some answers?

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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:28 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Sydney, Australia
I guess you might be missing my point.
10 years on, to still kludge about hacking with bits and pieces is not a good sign of development...when we are talking about core operations of a looping type device ie record and undo; Like putting an accelerator on a car but the brakes are in the boot. I would have hoped for better...I didnt think that was too much to hope for actually.
Innovation and efficiency are key milestones moving forward...so we are given a wavetable synth for Live 10 rather than fixing the basics. I for one rarely use host exclusive plugs. One of the reasons I moved to win10 ie Komplete 11..brilliant.

I have a floorboard + midi guitar, arrive at gig, plug + ins and outs (triple play is wireless), boot surface pro (Pure Data, Ableton Live), sound check, play. Nothing worse than debugging with show start happening because the ftdi decided to reorder itself and the midi is now in the wrong spots. These

Control Scene, Track and slots from 3 foot switches (plus bits)

Thats why Im a bit over bome+autoit+vbs+live+kludging and tinkering til the sun goes down...it doesnt have to be that way. Music is the core of what we do, interacting with each other...Much prefer to play music in synergy with others.

If Ableton could actually say why its not done...like "its really problematic because of blah blah" that would be nice. Apparently Push has undo in its control...? How is that communicated I wonder.


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Sydney, Australia
jestermgee wrote:

Maybe M4L has some answers?


Thanks for the tip...interestingly Max is almost identical to Pure Data...they have the same father...Miller_Puckette except M4L has native api access to Live's object model. So that further pushes the question...if the api has a handle to undo, then why no midi remote?

Maybe to force peeps to buy M4L...?

For anyone else looking for an answer...its there...loud and clear.

https://docs.cycling74.com/max6/dynamic/c74_docs.html#live_object_model

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:05 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2018 12:50 pm
Posts: 3
Dude.... YES, A WAY TO MIDI MAP UNDO HAS BEEN ASKED FOR A WHILE NOW...

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFF 2018, and ableton still doesnt have that, I am very disappointed. Having to fiddle around with a 3d party plugin for such a basic task is ridiculous imo.

Also sucks that you can't really edit/customize the keyboard shortcuts


I bet Audacity or garage band probably have that feature a -.-

Oh sure live is a great tool for many reasons, but this ehhhh come on.


Last edited by nellmusic on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:10 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2018 12:50 pm
Posts: 3
IMage_Engine wrote:
I guess you might be missing my point.
10 years on, to still kludge about hacking with bits and pieces is not a good sign of development...when we are talking about core operations of a looping type device ie record and undo; Like putting an accelerator on a car but the brakes are in the boot. I would have hoped for better...I didnt think that was too much to hope for actually.
Innovation and efficiency are key milestones moving forward...so we are given a wavetable synth for Live 10 rather than fixing the basics. I for one rarely use host exclusive plugs. One of the reasons I moved to win10 ie Komplete 11..brilliant.

I have a floorboard + midi guitar, arrive at gig, plug + ins and outs (triple play is wireless), boot surface pro (Pure Data, Ableton Live), sound check, play. Nothing worse than debugging with show start happening because the ftdi decided to reorder itself and the midi is now in the wrong spots. These

Control Scene, Track and slots from 3 foot switches (plus bits)

Thats why Im a bit over bome+autoit+vbs+live+kludging and tinkering til the sun goes down...it doesnt have to be that way. Music is the core of what we do, interacting with each other...Much prefer to play music in synergy with others.

If Ableton could actually say why its not done...like "its really problematic because of blah blah" that would be nice. Apparently Push has undo in its control...? How is that communicated I wonder.


Last year I was also using a maschine mk2 template with ableton live 9 and it had the script for it. In the maschine/ableton script manual, there were actually pointing out to a midi pad for undo (same as control z), pressing that pad on my maschine was doing the undo function perfectly. THough I never got to be able to assign that to another midi note/channel (for example on my keyboard) which would have been better.

So we have it : proof that it shouldnt be too hard


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:05 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2018 12:50 pm
Posts: 3
Edit #3 omg for those using an MPK 225/249 or 261, I've found a way to "map" ctrl-z to something on your controller !!!!!!

It is a work around (maby yours do too, check it out), but you have to do it manually in your controller editing setting as described here :

http://community.akaipro.com/akai_profe ... kai-mpk225


It works withouth actually goiing through the ableton normal way of mapping. I'm lucky my controller allows that. No thanks to Ableton Dev's here.

If you google this issue, you can find post back in 2004 for people asking for this. I'm still amazed 14 years later it is not adressed!


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 Post subject: Re: Midi Remote For Undo? Windows 10 send keys gone?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 14494
For those struggling with midi mapping I'll suggest its worth figuring out how to create a remote script for your device. Undo/Redo is available via the API. I made a (very crappy) remotescript for my FCB1010 footpedal setup that has stuff like session overdub, undo/redo, duplicate clip, delete clip, etc.
Its worth the investment of time if you rely on a specific footpedal

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