Hardware v software 303 emulations and Live

[kebabman]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere...

I am looking to add some 303 style bass to my tracks. I have followed tutorials using Operator but can't really get the sound I'm after. I used to have Rebirth on PC but I'm now mac based. Something similar to Rebirth led me to look at Phosycin, Ab3 and Muon Tau etc.

Some of these plugins seem fairly expensive. I then realised that I could get a Korg Volca bass for a bit more.

What are the benefits of the hardware v software route here?

If I went down the software route I would do hands on action using my Novation Launchkey which has loads of knobs and sliders. I'm also guessing that the advantage of this is that i can then automate all these parameters in Live.

If I went down the hardware route, am I right in thinking there's no automation afterwards? The only stuff I could automate would be Lives effects on the audio? When using hardware like this in the studio, do you just keep redoing the filter sweeps etc until you have the take you want? I don't know how easy it is to get a good 303 take with filters and cut offs etc?

I am also looking at doing some live gigs. Would having a hardware bass line be better for this? I'm guessing that I could then configure the controls on my Launchkey for other software plugins and Live effects.

Do some people use both?!!!

Many thanks everyone

[Angstrom]

You arent going to get a 303 sound with a volca bass. Its a very different thing, the sound and behave differently. It sounds like a volca bass.

If you want an affordable exact-ish 303 there are some well known software clones and probably the best IMO being Audiorealism Bass line. That's going to be the closest for cheap.

Or in hardware that recent digital Roland Boutique 303. Slight differences in sound but okay and you get physical controls.
I'd probably go for an XoX heart kit, if you can solder and have a eurorack case and power. http://synthcube.com/cart/index.php?rou ... uct_id=463

But really, it's worth examining what you want. If its "exactly the sound of the 303" then volca aint it. If you just want a cheap synth to run through distortion then volca is one of your options.

[login]

For hardware, you will not only need the synth but also the audio interface to record it and get the sound into Live. The Volca bass is also very limited in features and as you pointed out automation afterwards is not possible with it because of its limitations.

I would suggest you look for other synths (plugins) which can do 303 basslines and then some, for example Cyclop by sugar bytes, or Hive by U-he can do acid basslines and much more. I think they will offer something extra to what you already have in Live.

If you go for hardware pick something which can be automated and it is more versatile, the Bass Station 2 could be a great option.

[Richie Witch]

I agree with pretty much everything said up to this point, but would like to clarify one thing. You *can* automate the Volca Bass (and most hardware that has MIDI) from inside Live. A quick look at the Volca Bass' MIDI implementation chart shows that the following could be automated using CC messages from Live.

SLIDE TIME
EXPRESSION
OCTAVE
LFO RATE
LFO INT
VCO PITCH 1
VCO PITCH 2
VCO PITCH 3
EG ATTACK
EG DECAY/RELEASE
CUTOFF EG INT
GATE TIME

Different manufacturers pick different things to control via MIDI, so it's always a good idea to check the manual before you buy.

[kebabman]

Thank you everybody, some really useful info here. I'm not after an exact emulation, just something better than Impulse really. I'm sure I'll be sticking it through Live's effects anyway.

Angstrom, lots of people like the Audiorealism abl 3. I got a demo of it recently and it is indeed very good. At £90 this is what got me thinking about the Volca in the first place (£120). The cube modular thing looks good but I'm not very good at building things!

The Roland TB-03 wow - very nice - not sure about the budget! I'm assuming stuff like that can be automated via MIDI?

Login, the Cyclop sounds very nice and I love the Hive demo songs. I already have Massive and Arturia v 4 collection. I've fiddled around with the Jupiter 8 and the Moogs but I'm very lazy and can't get want I want with these!

Richie, interesting about some of the CCs being automated in a Volca. I'm sure the sound of this could be beefed up with Live's effects.

The reason I thought about the Volca is that I had a very quick go on a friend's and he has kindly offered to lend it me for a few weeks.

The message I'm getting here is that automation is v important - this is what I would have thought.

Another idea maybe.....I also have an old Yamaha AN1X with 8 knobs on it. I could literally just use these to control the Audiorealism abl 3. If I want something more portable I could get a Novation controller (8 knobs and a few pads) etc.

Finally, with regards to inputting note data, I'm guessing i don't really want to be squinting at a step sequencer type thing (hardware or software). Would the sensible thing be to program the notes in with my four octave midi keyboard and then get the device to play this?

Many thanks for all these different ideas... very interesting...

Thanks

[McAnix]

So to get an okayish 303 sound I used the TeeBee Light from the Retro Synths pack that comes with Suite. (Not sure if it's on 9 as I'm using 10 beta.)

I poped a max step sequencer before it and I'm pretty happy with it. It won't beat a hardware synth or a good pluggin but if you have the pack give it a try.

[kebabman]

Thanks for this.

I have the Live 9 Suite, I'll look into this. So I need to install max for Live and this synth is a plugin someone has written for Live?

Thanks

[McAnix]

Its actually a sampler preset with a 303 sample, there are a bunch of other old synth samples too.

[hoffman2k]

Audiorealism ABL3 is a no-brainer. On top of being a good 303 emulation, it also has some settings to offset the fact that the actual hardware units vary in their sound. Either due to age, mods or components.
So you get more than one flavour. Phoscyon isn't that bad either, but my personal preference goes to the Swedish ABL3. Incidentally, my Eurorack preference also goes to Sweden with the OSC303 and VCF303 from din-sync, which will provide sounds beyond the ability of a 303. If lucky and patient enough, you could also order a replica (not a clone) named the RE-303.
Sampled 303's only give one fixed flavour. But a lot of the greatest records of the past used sampled notes and/or riffs. So its not so much what you use.. Its how you use it.

Long story short = Sweden Rules!

[kebabman]

Hi McAnix

That's great! I have the retro synths and Tee Bee in Live 9 suite. I've just copied my midi notes onto an instance of this. It certainly adds something that was missing before (I've got an operator and a Jupiter 8 loaded also playing the same bass line). I've only had a quick look but I should be able to do cutoff and resonance type stuff? it's sounding great already!

Hi hoffman2K, a lot of thumbs ups for the ABl 3. I think I certainly shouldn't be spending 4 times this amount on a Roland silver box (tb 03 thing?).

I like those osc 303s - goes beyond what I want but very nice!

Thank you everybody.

[McAnix]

Yup, you can do cut off and most of the other basic stuff.

Cheers.

[hoffman2k]

Hi hoffman2K, a lot of thumbs ups for the ABl 3. I think I certainly shouldn't be spending 4 times this amount on a Roland silver box (tb 03 thing?).

I like those osc 303s - goes beyond what I want but very nice!

Those Roland boutiques are fun, but tiny. Then again, so was the TB-303. The TB-03 actually requires you to use a touchpad to use one of the most important parameters.
What makes the 303 sound is how the Envelope, Decay and Accent play along with the Cutoff and Resonance. What makes ABL useful is that you can have as many instances as you like.
You'll often find yourself wanting more 303 when you got a track or set going.
Avoid the digital hardware emulations if you really love the 303 sound and want to get the most out of it. I can't argue against getting a clone/replica, since its preferable to splashing out 2000€ on a mint condition TB-303.
OSC/VCF-303 is the most flexible... But Eurorack isn't exactly a cheaper option...

[jestermgee]

Audiorealism ABL3 is a no-brainer. On top of being a good 303 emulation, it also has some settings to offset the fact that the actual hardware units vary in their sound. Either due to age, mods or components.

Long story short = Sweden Rules!

Nice. I am an 80s/90s kid and fell in love with the 303 sound and use to jam at a mates place on a couple of computers running old Rebirth at the time. Before the days of the internet and "cracks" we were limited to 15 minutes per session and no sync, just press space bar at the same time and jam.

I have been debating ABL3 for a long time because as much as I love the 303 sound (for its memories) I am really not sure now how much I would ever use it in a production and certainly could never justify a real hardware version.

[kebabman]

Absolutely, one of the boutique Roland things has a green and red touch pad. It may look good in the dark but if you're tweaking 2 parameters simultaneously it would be tricky.

Very good point about having more than one instance open.

I think it's going to be the ABL 3 augmenting other soft synths and the Tee Bee in the vintage synths pack.

yes, back in the day I had rebirth on my old windows PC - loved it.

I found some old computer music mag discs including one with a full giveaway. Do any of these work on my mac? not a chance!

It's also annoying that the Rebirth museum thing doesn't seem to exist anymore - it used to have Rebirth in it.

[Angstrom]

Rebirth was pretty good for the time but if you did an A/B test against ABL3 I thnk you'd be less keen on it.

I got a copy of Rebirth in the late 90s. I ran it on a Pentium2 pro 233mhz. 32 meg of ram. Windows 95 se. I don't think it was even a VST at the time, just a standalone. It was astounding at the time "wow we can make music IN the computer!" .
I think its day has been and gone though.