Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

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The changes to Arrangement made it

Better
10
50%
About the same
4
20%
Worse
6
30%
 
Total votes: 20

Angstrom
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Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by Angstrom » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:42 am

I'm curious whether people are finding the changes to arranging in L10 better, or worse.
I assume everyone else is well past the "new and frightening" stage and well into the "I know how it works and I have an opinion based on long experience" phase.

Changes in L10 included things like how we select clips (clicking in the top half of a clip shows a hand/move cursor, while the bottom shows the select cursor) .
Also we have the new automation view, and envelope points which always snap to the grid.

I'm interested whether people feel the changes to arrangement and automation are making this area of the app simpler and swifter to get results, or is it now more complex and awkward, slowing you down.

Tarekith
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by Tarekith » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:34 pm

It's greatly sped things up for me, especially the new method for creating and viewing fades. It took me awhile to get used to the new way of selecting clips too, but now I really like it as the target area is so much bigger than before. I find it much easier when arranging things and doing lots of clip moving. I don't use automation much, so the new aspects there aren't a huge deal for me, though I do prefer the new way to the old way.

The only things I still struggle with are the new zoom key commands. Too easy to zoom all the way out and collapse your track, with no key command to uncollapse them. Also I dislike how the master channel gets selected and zoomed when you do a zoom to selection after selecting all. Otherwise smooth sailing here.

Mister Natural
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by Mister Natural » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:26 pm

my only issue is the loss of the toggle to show automation lanes. I see that's returned in the beta.2 update and can't wait for it's release(as I don't do betas)
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mholloway
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by mholloway » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:54 pm

As a very heavy user of automation, I am deeply pissed that I can no longer view specific automation tracks over-top and/or underneath specific tracks in the 'normal' Arrangement view (e.g. without this new 'toggle' behavior). AFAIC it's a downgrade of behavior and a huge bummer. I vastly prefer the old method, which to me is more powerful and simply makes more sense: an 'see everything you want to see in one view' approach is always better, to my mind, than a toggle-back-and-forth view of information. Pissed. Off.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 pm

mholloway wrote:As a very heavy user of automation, I am deeply pissed that I can no longer view specific automation tracks over-top and/or underneath specific tracks in the 'normal' Arrangement view (e.g. without this new 'toggle' behavior). AFAIC it's a downgrade of behavior and a huge bummer. I vastly prefer the old method, which to me is more powerful and simply makes more sense: an 'see everything you want to see in one view' approach is always better, to my mind, than a toggle-back-and-forth view of information. Pissed. Off.
Do you mean even with the current changes made to the beta? The return of the arrows made my day.
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mholloway
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by mholloway » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:05 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
Do you mean even with the current changes made to the beta? The return of the arrows made my day.

I'm behind on the betas and must have missed something in the releases notes, I guess. I'll check it out tonight; but what do you mean by "arrows" ? The old method had the little "+" to add new automation lanes, etc. What arrows?
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Stromkraft
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:02 am

mholloway wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
Do you mean even with the current changes made to the beta? The return of the arrows made my day.

I'm behind on the betas and must have missed something in the releases notes, I guess. I'll check it out tonight; but what do you mean by "arrows" ? The old method had the little "+" to add new automation lanes, etc. What arrows?
I'm glad you asked.
The "+" and "-" are still there already in Live 10.0. Compare these screen dumps:
The left is Live 10.0.2b7 and the right is Live 10.0.1:
Image Image

The arrow means you can add automation lanes, hide them with the arrow even while lanes in other tracks are visible and then show them again just as when you made them, not having to add one at a time again as in Live 10.0.1. Automation mode needs to be active of course to see any lanes.
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Angstrom
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by Angstrom » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:48 pm

A lot of my problems are with automation. I record automation from a controller, and there are naturally plenty of points created
Then I play back the arrangment and I roughly edit automation "from a distance" first, then go in and edit the points more precisely. So I zoom right out, as I listen to the arrangement I am used to grabbing a point and moving it downward, or dragging it sideways. L10 messes this up.
A lot of it is the snapping automation problem.

If I am zoomed out the adaptive grid is now 2-bars, so the automation will snap to that. So if I try and drag a point sideways it will snap to the 2bar line. So I use the "no snap" modifier key (ALmost always use this key - I only need automation to snap about 10% of the time.)
But that doesn't actually work.

Try it: twiddle a controller to make a bunch of automation points.
Now try to move one point slightly to the right, so that it eliminates a few of its neighbours.
what will happen is (regardless of any modifiers) Live will ignore you.
In L9 this action swiftly eliminated / overwrote any points to the left/right.
In L10 nothing happens for a few seconds and then it suddenly overwrites the next 100 points and snaps to the grid.

really annoying.

well, that's just one issue. But I have it every day and fuck me do I hate it.

EDIT ... example of what I mean. Snappy fucking envelopes. I hate them.
Image

timday
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by timday » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:12 pm

I don't like the all one colour thing
As has been noted elsewhere it's hard to see the grid lines behind the new blocks except when automation is on.
I also found the old tracks with a colour bar at the top and an audio/MIDI representation at the bottom easier to work with. Different clearly marked area of the track, different tooltip, easy. Now I have to mess about trying to figure out what the tool is doing. I guess I'll get used to it but the grid lines thing is pretty poor.
I do most of my editing with automation on now which kinda seems to negate the point of the new layout.

Fades are better, automation when it's actually implemented is better, groups in groups yes please, lots of things are better but I've lost some of the beautiful slick ease of use factor that made me switch to Live in the first place. That's a huge thing for me so on balance worse IMO.

kdogg456
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Re: Are the changes to Arrangment View in L10 helping you?

Post by kdogg456 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:57 am

I keep trying to like v10 but since they changed the two most important features of the arrange view I keep going back to 9. The cursor editing behavior is better in 9, I don't like having to commit to nudging the selected range in v10. I like to select a range and delete / copy / etc and then jump to the desire area quickly and paste etc.. I use better touch tool and keyboard maestro with custom key commands to jump around between regions / nudge / zoom to selection vertically and horizontally / zoom tracks vertically etc... These mostly all work better in v9.

Also, I prefer the automation being instantly accessible and as much as I can appreciate what they're trying to achieve with the automation mode toggle, it's simply faster in 9.

I thought forever that I wanted solid blocks of color for regions in the arrange but now when I go back to 9 it's easier to edit and see the grid. I also don't like the automation snapping to the grid, easy enough to do that with range selection cut commands. Don't like the font either, replaced it with a custom Futura font and looks better but v9 seems to work on any screen at any resolution.

Definitely dig the under the hood improvements and the 60fps responsiveness but v9 is just better for me. I do a ton of editing of both automation and audio and v10 is a big step back.

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