correct gain staging in live

[scheffkoch]

i’m a little bit confused right now so i need some assistance:

I have let’s say 4 tracks…each track peaks at -10db, the plugins (instrument, compressor and so on) don’t show any overload.
when I route these tracks to one audio channel this channel goes into the red…now to reduce this tracks' level the correct way would be to insert the utility plugin and reduce the level with that (and not reduce the level by lowering the fader), right? or should i lower the tracks' faders?

thanks for your input!
b

[Angstrom]

Lower the fader of each track.
The volume fader comes after each track's racks and effects so won't affect the gain relationships within each track.

multi-select the four tracks and while they are highlighted move them all downwards until the destination group (or Buss) is peaking at -10.

you can use the utility method if you prefer, but I prefer to see the gain relationships on the larger faders because they are more often visible.

[scheffkoch]

...thanks for your reply!!!

regarding your suggestion: wouldn't be a (big?) difference in sound if i'd lower the tracks' faders (because these tracks are now peaking at e.g. -15db) instead of using the utility on the sum of the tracks (on the group or buss)?...

[Angstrom]

It's the same outcome. As. I understand your case.

This is the signal flow

Audiostream->rack->audio-devices-> Track Volume Fader -->out to buss

You are asking if this is better.

Audiostream->rack->audio-devices-> Utility ->Track Volume Fader -->out to buss


If you have buss compression or any other nonlinear effect then for sure altering input amplitude will change the response, but whether it's track vol fader or a utility the outcome is equivalent.

AsI understand your routing

[Stromkraft]

Great advice, Angstrom. Madeleine Bloom also wrote about this, specifically "Gain Staging in Ableton Live Done Right".

[scheffkoch]

"You are asking if this is better.

Audiostream->rack->audio-devices-> Utility ->Track Volume Fader -->out to buss"

...not really...my chain would be:

instrument tracks to buss - utility on buss to reduce the summing of the instrument tracks

..so i would insert only one utility plugin on the buss to reduce the instrument tracks' summing level...

[evon]

I would think that gain staging would involve adjusting the signal gain to the mixer so as to get unity gain in each of the tracks initially. Then the mixer's volume faders can be used to control the levels of the mix.

Remember that gain relates to how hot the signal is going into the DAW, IMO.

[ark]

Multiplication distributes over addition.

Suppose you have four tracks, T1 through T4. You want to change the level of each track by multiplying it by a gain factor G. Then

(T1*G + T2*G + T3*G + T4*G) = (T1 + T2 + T3 + T4)*G

because multiplication distributes over addition. Therefore changing the level of each track individually and then summing them has same effect as changing the gain of the sum...

...with one proviso, namely that the intermediate results must not overflow their respective channels. Fortunately, Live does its internal computations in floating-point, and IIRC they offer a 60dB tolerance for overflow everywhere but the final output, in which the headroom depends on the hardware.

[scheffkoch]

...thanks!