John Bonham Drums

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thing
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John Bonham Drums

Post by thing » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:49 am

I'm probably a little different to you guys as I'm a guitarist who wants to create music via Ableton incorporating my guitar and bass lines. So I'm a rock guy and really enjoying working with Ableton.
I'm able to create a band at home without playing with my band, so I guess I'm most likely using it a bit differently to most of you?
Anyways I'm looking for a drum set in the style of John Bonham, heavy, 70's. Think Kashmir, Rock and Roll, Black dog...
Any ideas?

[jur]
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by [jur] » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 pm

Many of us here use Live for other things than electronic music.
You should definitely study the topic of room mic compression to get John Bonham's kind of sound.
If you've got Live Suite there's great acoustic drums packs (Session drums...)
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thing
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by thing » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:40 pm

[jur] wrote:Many of us here use Live for other things than electronic music.
You should definitely study the topic of room mic compression to get John Bonham's kind of sound.
If you've got Live Suite there's great acoustic drums packs (Session drums...)
OK thank you. A starting point was what I needed. Session drums here I come! And room mic compression will be studied.

Angstrom
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by Angstrom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:47 pm

While I'm a practitioner of "realistic" drum programming, it is a little bit of a crazy pastime which requires a lot of pre-planning. EG to get a Glynn Johns 3 mic sound, or a Bonham "mics in the hallway" sound requires the user to use Session Drums in a way that the interface doesnt readilly assist you towards. We need to know the application quite well beforehand, understand the routing, etc. Thats a lot of non-rock time programming beats.

And all of that effort can tend to produce quite sterile robotic sounding drums, which is fine if you like late 80s sterility, but most people then dedicate a few years figuring out how to program like a drummer plays. And realising there are never enough cymbal multisamples to capture the sound of a what cymbals do. Or of a snare detuned or tuned in a specific way. . And to do that requires mental graft. Rewarding, but it will not feel like ROCK as you inch though a bar subtly altering a ghost hit on bar 63.

What I'd say is - focus on where you want to get to. Are you wanting to write rock, or learn how to program rock drums. Because its easy to lose focus of your goal.

What I suggest ...
Get a loop/drum pack of some famous drummer you like. All those dudes must have a product out there. A bunch of standard beats and tempos played with precision, recorded well. Now write your first riffs /demos on a shitty beat you program but make sure as soon as you can to grab your Pro Drummer samples and swap out your computer thumping. Now write the song from there.

Otherwise in 10 months you will be still saying "whats keyswitching" and "how do I write convincing fills" rather than - check out my new tracks.

You can always get a session drummer to replace the bought loops if you feel the need.

McAnix
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by McAnix » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:40 pm

Angstrom wrote:While I'm a practitioner of "realistic" drum programming, it is a little bit of a crazy pastime which requires a lot of pre-planning. EG to get a Glynn Johns 3 mic sound, or a Bonham "mics in the hallway" sound requires the user to use Session Drums in a way that the interface doesnt readilly assist you towards. We need to know the application quite well beforehand, understand the routing, etc. Thats a lot of non-rock time programming beats.

And all of that effort can tend to produce quite sterile robotic sounding drums, which is fine if you like late 80s sterility, but most people then dedicate a few years figuring out how to program like a drummer plays. And realising there are never enough cymbal multisamples to capture the sound of a what cymbals do. Or of a snare detuned or tuned in a specific way. . And to do that requires mental graft. Rewarding, but it will not feel like ROCK as you inch though a bar subtly altering a ghost hit on bar 63.

What I'd say is - focus on where you want to get to. Are you wanting to write rock, or learn how to program rock drums. Because its easy to lose focus of your goal.

What I suggest ...
Get a loop/drum pack of some famous drummer you like. All those dudes must have a product out there. A bunch of standard beats and tempos played with precision, recorded well. Now write your first riffs /demos on a shitty beat you program but make sure as soon as you can to grab your Pro Drummer samples and swap out your computer thumping. Now write the song from there.

Otherwise in 10 months you will be still saying "whats keyswitching" and "how do I write convincing fills" rather than - check out my new tracks.

You can always get a session drummer to replace the bought loops if you feel the need.
This.

Save your self the time and buy sample packs, you'll be stoked I assure you.

https://www.thelooploft.com/collections/drum-loops Here is a good place to start. (I have no affiliation)

miyaru
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by miyaru » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:20 pm

Beside EDM, I like to record reaggea tunes for fun. I also play bassguitar and some guitar. Just do what you like, with whatever soft/hardware you like.

For Bonham sounds, which I know well, as I listened to LZ for years and years, get samples, reprogramming his kind of drumming is a nightmare!

I know, it is more satisfying to do it all yourself, but as stated before, don't loose track of your goals.

Then again, there might be books with transcribed parts of Bonham what you can translate to Live's midi editor......
Greetings from Miyaru.

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Pitch Black
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by Pitch Black » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:02 am

FWIW the actual John Bonham isolated drum tracks were once liberated to the internet, if you knew where to look...
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thing
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by thing » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:02 am

Great advice thank you. Even after my limited playing around in Ableton, I totally get what you are saying.
Looking around now for options on the net.

McAnix
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by McAnix » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:11 am


thing
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by thing » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:50 pm

Angstrom wrote:While I'm a practitioner of "realistic" drum programming, it is a little bit of a crazy pastime which requires a lot of pre-planning. EG to get a Glynn Johns 3 mic sound, or a Bonham "mics in the hallway" sound requires the user to use Session Drums in a way that the interface doesnt readilly assist you towards. We need to know the application quite well beforehand, understand the routing, etc. Thats a lot of non-rock time programming beats.

And all of that effort can tend to produce quite sterile robotic sounding drums, which is fine if you like late 80s sterility, but most people then dedicate a few years figuring out how to program like a drummer plays. And realising there are never enough cymbal multisamples to capture the sound of a what cymbals do. Or of a snare detuned or tuned in a specific way. . And to do that requires mental graft. Rewarding, but it will not feel like ROCK as you inch though a bar subtly altering a ghost hit on bar 63.

What I'd say is - focus on where you want to get to. Are you wanting to write rock, or learn how to program rock drums. Because its easy to lose focus of your goal.

What I suggest ...
Get a loop/drum pack of some famous drummer you like. All those dudes must have a product out there. A bunch of standard beats and tempos played with precision, recorded well. Now write your first riffs /demos on a shitty beat you program but make sure as soon as you can to grab your Pro Drummer samples and swap out your computer thumping. Now write the song from there.

Otherwise in 10 months you will be still saying "whats keyswitching" and "how do I write convincing fills" rather than - check out my new tracks.



You can always get a session drummer to replace the bought loops if you feel the need.
I so get it, and thank you.

piZMo
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by piZMo » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:17 pm

Pitch Black wrote:FWIW the actual John Bonham isolated drum tracks were once liberated to the internet, if you knew where to look...
This, and slice/convert to MIDI.

nathannn
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by nathannn » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:09 pm

To get a John Bonham like drum sound I use NI abbey road 60s drummer which comes with two kits (early 60s and late 60s) I use the early 60s kit and route all the instruments to the room and overhead mic aux.
With the kick and the snare I turn the dry signal up to around - 12db and then turn the room and over head mics up about half way for both drums.
After that I use the old ableton compressor and tweak it to my liking. Sometimes I will use a little bit of saturation to give it a tape sound.

What I was really trying to replicate was the drum sound on weezers pinkerton album which sounds like they where trying to replicate Bonham.
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Pitch Black
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by Pitch Black » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:55 am

piZMo wrote:
Pitch Black wrote:FWIW the actual John Bonham isolated drum tracks were once liberated to the internet, if you knew where to look...
This, and slice/convert to MIDI.
I wasn't necessarily saying use 'em, but things like that that float around on the internet can be massively instructive. There are some multi-track sessions floating out there of classic songs. "Heard It Through The Grapevine" is one I once heard split into 7 or 8 stems. Its absolutely incredible to hear the playing and artistry in each individual part when you hear such a well-known classic deconstructed.
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slatepipe
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by slatepipe » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:01 am

i often use a John Bonham drum loop in one of my live sets, but i sampled it from the Beastie Boys Rhymin' and Stealin'. second generation sample i guess, two degrees of seperation :wink:

H20nly
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Re: John Bonham Drums

Post by H20nly » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:39 pm

McAnix wrote:https://www.thelooploft.com/collections ... stylus-rmx

A decent recreation I think.
*bookmark*

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