Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

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MThorrez
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:32 pm

Hi there!

I am trying to control my external drum machine (Vermona drm1 MKIII) using a drum rack in Ableton.
I have 8 midi channels (9-16) communicating with my drum machine.
On my drum machine each sound is set on a different midi channel:

midi channel 9: kick
midi channel 10: dr1
midi channel 11: dr2
midi channel 12: multi
midi channel 13: snare
midi channel 14: HH1
midi channel 15: HH2
midi channel 16: clap

In Ableton, I have a drum rack with different external instruments on it.
Each instance has a different 'midi to' that communicates with the corresponding midi channel of the vermona drum machine.
The 'audio from' are always the same 2 inputs (stereo)

Image

On the overview beneath, you can see that Ableton makes a track for each instance, so for each midi channel.

Image

In the Vermona track, I make my rythms as I want then:

Image

The problem is, when I'm muting one instance, or when I set the 'audio from' to 'no input' for one instance, I can still hear it thru the others. Meaning, I think, that the midi channels don't matter? Every subtrack operates in the same way. Or am I missing something? Overlooking something? On top of that, I have a synth on midi channel 8, that comes in on a different track in ableton using a different input, but when I play something from my drumrack, the audio comes in there as well .. This synth is in the same midi daisy chain as the vermona, maybe something to do with that? I don't know ..

If someone can help me out with this, would be great!

Thanks a lot!
Last edited by MThorrez on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

MThorrez
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:34 pm

Don't know why the images are not showing, but you can copy the link in a different tab ..

Thanks again!

M.

arretx
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 am

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by arretx » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:25 am

You have your input set to All Ins, All Channels. This is why your keyboard is triggering the drums.

I wouldn't put each pad on its own channel. Just run a single channel and let the note values be the different pads, and the velocity of the pad control the dynamics of each sound.

You're using up way too many channels for one function.
MacBook Air | Ableton Live 9.7.5 2017-10-02 | Advance 61 Keybaord w/VIP 3.0 | Launchpad Mini | Scarlett Focusrite 18i8 | iPad Pro / OnSong | Allen & Heath QU-32

MThorrez
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:27 pm

arretx wrote:You have your input set to All Ins, All Channels. This is why your keyboard is triggering the drums.

I wouldn't put each pad on its own channel. Just run a single channel and let the note values be the different pads, and the velocity of the pad control the dynamics of each sound.

You're using up way too many channels for one function.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean ..
Are you suggesting that I use 1 track with only 1 channel f.e. midi channel 9 and then put a drumrack on that track and then what?
What's the instrument on that rack then? Because now I use an external instrument instance as an instrument, to indicate the different midi channels ..
I don't get why this is a solution for my problem. This is just, maybe, a more simple way to obtain what I have now? (connect via only 1 midi channel, instead of 8 different ones) But the problem is still effective, no?

MThorrez
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Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:16 pm

I don't have a midi keyboard or pads to trigger ableton, it's the other way around, I want to use ableton to trigger a drum synth.
If I use the same midi channel for each sound, then I'm gonna hear 8 sounds at the same time, so I need 8 different midi channels so I can trigger them separately.
The only thing is the audio, maybe I need 8 different inputs as well .. but that would be crazy. There has to be a workaround.

Stromkraft
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Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:53 pm

MThorrez wrote:… I want to use ableton to trigger a drum synth.
If I use the same midi channel for each sound, then I'm gonna hear 8 sounds at the same time, so I need 8 different midi channels so I can trigger them separately.
So what you're saying here is that your drum synth, the Vermona, does not limit the playable trigger by note, but rather by MIDI channel. This is the reason why you need your setup? I'm just attempting to clarify this as other members may not have used the Vermona.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:09 pm

MThorrez wrote: The problem is, when I'm muting one instance, or when I set the 'audio from' to 'no input' for one instance, I can still hear it thru the others.
What specifically do you mean with "can still hear it thru the others"? What do you hear if you solo one of them?
Make some music!

MThorrez
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
MThorrez wrote: The problem is, when I'm muting one instance, or when I set the 'audio from' to 'no input' for one instance, I can still hear it thru the others.
What specifically do you mean with "can still hear it thru the others"? What do you hear if you solo one of them?
Imagine I only want to trigger the kick, that means in my case, I would draw a midi note C1 in the vermona track and loop it.
The kick on my vermona listens to midi channel 9.
In my drumrack, I put kick on C1 / 'midi to' on usb uno midi interface, channel 9 / 'audio from' on input 13&14
When I mute the subtrack 'kick dry' (overview picture), I can still hear the kick on the other tracks 'dr 1 dry', 'dr 2 dry', 'multi dry' and so on .. because they are set to the audio 13&14 as well. Is there another way, so I can only have the audio of my kick on the first 'kick dry' subtrack, without using 8 different inputs?

Other example. When I have a kick and a snare drawn in the vermona track and loop it, that means my drumrack is triggering C1 on midi channel 9 for the kick and sending it to input 13&14 AND triggering G1 on midi channel 13 for the snare and sending it to input 13&14. When I solo the 'kick dry', I hear both the kick and the snare, but I only want to hear the kick, not the snare .. Can I make something that does this? I can't figure this out ..

Sry if I'm complicating things that are maybe not that complicated :)

Thanks!

jestermgee
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Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by jestermgee » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:30 pm

Try this...

Scrap all those channels and just load a default empty drum rack.

Grab the "External Instrument" device and drag that onto a pad

Configure the MIDI TO output to send the MIDI/Channel when the pad is hit and if you are listening to audio, set the channel that the audio is connected to in the Audio From section

Should allow you to now send MIDI out and receive Audio back all on a single pad. I say Should because I have not done this for external gear, just internal drum modules and i'm thinking off the top of my head but sounds like it will solve your issue unless I haven't read things right.

Stromkraft
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Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:46 am

MThorrez wrote:
Sry if I'm complicating things that are maybe not that complicated :)
This is all natural first reactions to the drum rack. It's a versatile idea.
MThorrez wrote: In my drumrack, I put kick on C1 / 'midi to' on usb uno midi interface, channel 9 / 'audio from' on input 13&14
When I mute the subtrack 'kick dry' (overview picture), I can still hear the kick on the other tracks 'dr 1 dry', 'dr 2 dry', 'multi dry' and so on .. because they are set to the audio 13&14 as well. Is there another way, so I can only have the audio of my kick on the first 'kick dry' subtrack, without using 8 different inputs?
If you want to be able to separate audio you need to use the different audio outputs of the Vermona and connect these to the audio inputs of your audio interface and then select these in your External Instrument according the drum voice. I don't see any escape from that as when you have mixed audio in your main outputs of the Vermona it's not possible to just unmix these. My apologies If I misunderstand what you want to be able to do.

An alternative strategy to using separate outs is to mute the MIDI in the clip itself by selecting a row in the piano roll and press the "0" key to toggle the selected notes between active and inactive. Image

I might add that I view this with the MIDI channels as part of your setup which I believe is not really influencing your options here. You can't filter anything on MIDI channel as that happens last and is done directly to the MIDI bus.

What is left is filtering MIDI notes, i e the triggers, before that step or alternatively use audio separation.
Make some music!

MThorrez
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:13 am

I found this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=203086&p=1744410#p1744410

Maybe this is easier to understand than my complex explanations :)

Conclusion: It can't be done.

Shame shame 8)

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by Stromkraft » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:14 am

MThorrez wrote: Conclusion: It can't be done.
You did not like my workaround suggestion above, inactivating/reactivating note events in the clips?
Make some music!

MThorrez
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by MThorrez » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:46 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
MThorrez wrote: Conclusion: It can't be done.
You did not like my workaround suggestion above, inactivating/reactivating note events in the clips?
It's useless for me actually ..
I made a little video to explain it in a better way:

VIDEO

I made everything a little more simple.
Just 2 tracks kick and clap that are triggering my vermona.
On each individual track I made a drumrack with in it, the external instrument with midi to and audio from parameters.
I also added an EQ to show you what the problem is, because when I use my vermona, I want to be able to f.e. eq the kick separately.
This is not possible. The clap is eq'ing in the same way despite the fact that the eq of the clap is in another drumrack.

Thanks anyway for all the help you guys! Awesome how people are willing to think along here.

pottering
Posts: 722
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: Problems with different midi channels and drum rack

Post by pottering » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:30 pm

You can try dropping a Velocity device on that pad, set to Clip mode and "Out Hi" set to 0. Or Gate mode and Range set to 0.

Also simply changing the "Receive" note on the pad's Chain to a note that isn't played by the external hardware.

[edit: Oops, maybe it is the reverse, change the "Receive" note to a note that isn't being sent to the Drum Rack. Since a Pad only receives one note.]

[edit2: Simply disabling the specific External Device works too]

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