Bouncing Audio

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
birdhouse19
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:52 am

Bouncing Audio

Post by birdhouse19 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:33 am

Got a deadline so this is driving me crazy...

I have a project and when I export out of the master the whole track is in time no issues. I'm supposed to send the stems to the label and when I render individual tracks to create the stems, they come out all out of time. It sounds like a train wreck. I've done this before.. rendered individual tracks to audio (for stem purposes), save them to a folder, re-open them drag and drop them into another ableton session and the stems represent the full track (all in time, no issues).

Anyone got any feedback why they think all this audio is bouncing out of time?

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:57 am

birdhouse19 wrote:Got a deadline so this is driving me crazy...

I have a project and when I export out of the master the whole track is in time no issues. I'm supposed to send the stems to the label and when I render individual tracks to create the stems, they come out all out of time. It sounds like a train wreck. I've done this before.. rendered individual tracks to audio (for stem purposes), save them to a folder, re-open them drag and drop them into another ableton session and the stems represent the full track (all in time, no issues).

Anyone got any feedback why they think all this audio is bouncing out of time?
Are you using Track Delay in any tracks? That is not maintained when exporting.
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Gregwaah
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:13 am

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Gregwaah » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:42 am

Is Ableton warping the individual stems upon importing them? That got me a few times. You can turn off "Auto-Warp Long Samples" from the preferences menu.

Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:07 pm

Gregwaah wrote:Is Ableton warping the individual stems upon importing them? That got me a few times. You can turn off "Auto-Warp Long Samples" from the preferences menu.
That's actually an even more important, centrally important, detail. As the new set likely have the same tempo as the original it shouldn't be a problem if one defaults to one of the "neutral" warp modes that should remain sounding the same provided the tempo isn't changed. However, as Live is not great getting the actual source tempo right, especially without an accompanying ASD file, re-importing could apply small tempo change.
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Da hand
Posts: 1711
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:38 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Da hand » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Warped files and wrong clip starting times are usually the two issues throwing off timing on (re)-importing stems. These two things are something that Live can mess up sometimes, no matter what settings you have. So make sure that each of the stem clips has Warp off and that the clip Start Markers are all really at the beginning of each clip.

birdhouse19
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:52 am

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by birdhouse19 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:08 am

Gregwaah wrote:Is Ableton warping the individual stems upon importing them? That got me a few times. You can turn off "Auto-Warp Long Samples" from the preferences menu.
Bro what a lifesaver, 100% right!!! I turned off the "Auto-Warp Long Samples" in the preferences and bang everything in time! I know I only had this issue because someone gave me stems from their logic session screwing everything up. I'm def in business, I was freaking out because these stems are going to Armada Music! Thanks again!

:D

EnjoyRC
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Location: USA

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by EnjoyRC » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:44 am

Stromkraft wrote:Are you using Track Delay in any tracks? That is not maintained when exporting.
Are you sure about this? (just verifying) I modify track delay frequently for some VSTs that need it. I have never noticed those tracks being out of time after bouncing them. I'll experiment tonight.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:15 pm

EnjoyRC wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:Are you using Track Delay in any tracks? That is not maintained when exporting.
Are you sure about this? (just verifying) I modify track delay frequently for some VSTs that need it. I have never noticed those tracks being out of time after bouncing them. I'll experiment tonight.
This was true in Live 9 when I last tested a few years back. I abandoned track delays at that point.

I haven't tested in Live 10, but it would be interesting to learn. This may have been improved/fixed since because I, and maybe a few others, posted bug reports to Ableton about it.
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EnjoyRC
Posts: 690
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Location: USA

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by EnjoyRC » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:37 pm

Stromkraft wrote:This was true in Live 9 when I last tested a few years back. I abandoned track delays at that point.

I haven't tested in Live 10, but it would be interesting to learn. This may have been improved/fixed since because I, and maybe a few others, posted bug reports to Ableton about it.
I wonder if it makes a difference if you export that ONE track verses exporting MASTER with all other tracks muted? Might apply the track delay when exporting MASTER...
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Stromkraft
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Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:39 pm

EnjoyRC wrote: Might apply the track delay when exporting MASTER...
Well, of course this works. That's just summing. I thought the topic was multiple track exports.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:52 pm

EnjoyRC wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:This was true in Live 9 when I last tested a few years back. I abandoned track delays at that point.

I haven't tested in Live 10, but it would be interesting to learn. This may have been improved/fixed since because I, and maybe a few others, posted bug reports to Ableton about it.
I wonder if it makes a difference if you export that ONE track verses exporting MASTER with all other tracks muted? Might apply the track delay when exporting MASTER...
Ok, got curious and made a quick test with negative track delay in the latest 10 beta. I maintain that exporting of singular tracks that have track delay om them won't have that on export. Given that track delays also adds latency and there are other ways to be "early" or "late" I sincerely feel track delays are close to worthless for music production. Maybe they have some use, but I can't see it.
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pottering
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Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by pottering » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:43 pm

This guy uses Track Delay as fast way to add "swing" to tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcNonCTLd2k

I guess Track Delay is post-fader. Track export is also post-fader. It would be weird if "post-fader" turn out to be not really directly post-fader, for a important operation like the final export, so it render the audio before the Track Delay, instead of creating a weird exception to the rules.

Another "evidence" is that if you add the track to a Group and export the Group then it does render the Track Delay

Stromkraft
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Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:33 pm

pottering wrote: I guess Track Delay is post-fader.
I don't really see why it would be. Track delays are like any other effect and are delay compensated. When you move tracks with negative values all other tracks are delayed. You're suggesting this happens after the fader. I think it happens first.
pottering wrote: Another "evidence" is that if you add the track to a Group and export the Group then it does render the Track Delay
If this works this is an acceptable workaround.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:41 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
pottering wrote: Another "evidence" is that if you add the track to a Group and export the Group then it does render the Track Delay
If this works this is an acceptable workaround.
Yep. Tested and it truly works! Great find, Pottering!
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Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Bouncing Audio

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:53 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
pottering wrote: I guess Track Delay is post-fader.
I don't really see why it would be. Track delays are like any other effect and are delay compensated. When you move tracks with negative values all other tracks are delayed. You're suggesting this happens after the fader. I think it happens first.
If what you say was true then a delay send, set to "pre", would result in out of rhythm repeats when you change the track delay time, as this is sent pre-fader. This does not happen indicating Track Delays are adjusted earlier, likely before any device chain.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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