GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Do you have GUI lag in Ableton 10.0.2 or higher does 10.0.1 perform much better?

Much better performance in 10.0.1
3
33%
Slightly better performance in 10.0.1
1
11%
No difference in performance in 10.0.1
4
44%
Worse performance in 10.0.1
1
11%
 
Total votes: 9

DjFralo
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm

GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by DjFralo » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:27 pm

(downloads below)

First of all, the release notes suggest many IMPROVEMENTS to the UI performance in arrangement view after beta 10.0.1, however performance is drastically WORSE in 10.0.3b6. After downgrading to 10.0.1, my performance increased about 2x. If you have a 144hz screen OR a Macbook pro after 2015 (Metal2 support) then I highly advise downgrading if you want better GUI performance.
(https://www.ableton.com/en/release-notes/live-10-beta/)

I just tested this, downgrading Live 10.0.3b6 to 10.0.1 has fixed pretty much every single bit of lag there is in Ableton 10. There seems to be a serious bug or leak or some other optimisation issue which was not there in 10.0.1. This might have something to do with Gsync, Vsync or any other variable refresh rate technology. I have a Gsync 144hz monitor and a Macbook pro 15", both machines experienced this massive drop in performance since 10.0.2.

The reason why I think it has to do with variable refresh rate is that Nvidia uses Gsync and it causes framerate issues in Live. And Apple is also using its own proprietary technology to variably refresh the Macbook Pro screen since the introduction of Metal. MacOS Mojave will introduce Metal 2, where OpenGL will be depreciated. Ableton's devs are probably (SHOULD BE) switching to Metal 2 at this moment in time, which is why Live 10 came with the higher framerate update compared to Live 9. However, I think the transfer to Metal 2 from OpenGL is taking a bit longer than expected as I can imagine DAW audio processing might make it more complex. But should be completely switched over once Mojave hits the market (late 2018).

Since OpenGL is cross platform and Metal 2 is only on MacOS, it might be difficult to transition as the Windows and Mac application will have more differences in the code. We might start to see (more) differences in performance depending on if you're using Mac or windows.

10.0.3b6 -> 10.0.1 gave me about 3x the framerate
my system:
144hz Gsync 1440p monitor 100% scaling
8700,980ti, win10,16gb DDR4



windows 10.0.1 Suite download:

http://downloads.ableton.com/channels/1 ... 0.1_64.zip

Mac 10.0.1 Suite download:

http://downloads.ableton.com/channels/1 ... 0.1_64.dmg

Link to beta forum post:

Link to beta forum post: https://ableton.centercode.com/project/ ... 177F}&tp=1
Last edited by DjFralo on Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jestermgee
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Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by jestermgee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:54 pm

And you posted all your findings in the Beta group I assume. Want to post the link to that instead of this poll for users that may have the same issue that could help to actually solve it?

It's already known as a "solution" for people having this issue to revert to 10.0.1 but in an effort to fix the issue, the Beta is not an actual release to take as "fixed" but if it does not work for you as is expected, you should really contribute your findings first to the Beta team so they can look into it.

DjFralo
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by DjFralo » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:31 pm

jestermgee wrote:And you posted all your findings in the Beta group I assume. Want to post the link to that instead of this poll for users that may have the same issue that could help to actually solve it?

It's already known as a "solution" for people having this issue to revert to 10.0.1 but in an effort to fix the issue, the Beta is not an actual release to take as "fixed" but if it does not work for you as is expected, you should really contribute your findings first to the Beta team so they can look into it.
This has been posted and reported in the beta team forum, I wanted other people to know how to improve performance. When I googled my issues, things like switching to 60hz came up but this is NOT a solution. And 144hz will work perfectly smooth in 10.0.1, while 10.0.2 and higher remain a choppy mess.

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:27 am

Why exactly do you need to run Live with G-Sync active? Commonly you only use this for gaming.

If you still have the beta installed it would be interesting to see of this lag of yours is the same with G-Sync being off. I'm surprised you didn't at least test with this or at least you failed to report. Why?
I have four versions of Live installed so no issues having multiple versions side by side on Mac at least.
Make some music!

DjFralo
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by DjFralo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:52 am

Stromkraft wrote:Why exactly do you need to run Live with G-Sync active? Commonly you only use this for gaming.

If you still have the beta installed it would be interesting to see of this lag of yours is the same with G-Sync being off. I'm surprised you didn't at least test with this or at least you failed to report. Why?
I have four versions of Live installed so no issues having multiple versions side by side on Mac at least.
Gsync disabled, Triple buffer Vsync, 59hz, 60hz, 120hz, any resolution,... I tested everything and it is clear that this is a bug or leak introduced in 10.0.2 and higher. This happens in arrangement view, if you don’t have any issue with 10.0.3b6 then I’m glad for you, but many people notice higher fan usage on Macbook Pro’s and frame rate drops on PC, so right now 10.0.1 is just the best performing version.

Stromkraft
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Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:05 am

DjFralo wrote:This happens in arrangement view, if you don’t have any issue with 10.0.3b6 then I’m glad for you, but many people notice higher fan usage on Macbook Pro’s and frame rate drops on PC, so right now 10.0.1 is just the best performing version.
Define "many". You mean you saw a number of posts and assumed all those not posting have the same issues, right? Ableton might have some reliable figures. You don't. While it's very fine that you notice, test and report issues, please refrain from spreading FUD by remaking your assumptions as facts.

Frame rate drops? That's gaming language. I don't care about frames. I'm making music. If the GUI lags it's because my machine is working hard and Ableton didn't fix delay compensation for the GUI. Live is supposed to prioritize audio over GUI. If the GUI lags without a load that's an issue of course. But crackles are far, far worse.

There are as far as I know some changes made to the GUI, at least on Windows in later versions, and it's possible some side-effects of that or something else affect the situation for some users. That should be discussed and handled. But you don't have the data to support that Live 10.0.1 performs better than later versions on every single machine out there, which you are indeed implying. That doesn't mean some people aren't having issues including yourself. But please don't over-generalize and project your issues onto everyone else not posting about this.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:08 am

DjFralo wrote: Gsync disabled, Triple buffer Vsync, 59hz, 60hz, 120hz, any resolution,...
That's certainly more info than "This might have something to do with Gsync, Vsync or any other variable refresh rate technology". What have Ableton said about refresh rates? I know Live uses OpenGL (At least in 9). Have you looked into that?

What drivers are you using? What graphics card specifically?
Make some music!

DjFralo
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by DjFralo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:30 am

Stromkraft wrote: That's certainly more info than "This might have something to do with Gsync, Vsync or any other variable refresh rate technology". What have Ableton said about refresh rates? I know Live uses OpenGL (At least in 9). Have you looked into that?

What drivers are you using? What graphics card specifically?
980 ti, yes Live uses openGL and they are changing to Metal2 as this is necessary because Apple will remove support for openGL. The issue is introduced in 10.0.2, every version after 10.0.2 has the stutter issues. 10.0.1 does not have this issue. I cannot find any old beta’s so I can’t check where exactly they messed up.

I’m also 100% sure it has something to do with the rewriting of code involving audio clips in arrangement view, as soon as a chopped up audio clip comes in view in 10.0.2 or higher, framerate tanks. In 10.0.1 when the chopped audio clip comes in view, everything stays relatively smooth. Have you tested this issue?

Stromkraft
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Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:58 am

DjFralo wrote:
I’m also 100% sure it has something to do with the rewriting of code involving audio clips in arrangement view, as soon as a chopped up audio clip comes in view in 10.0.2 or higher, framerate tanks. In 10.0.1 when the chopped audio clip comes in view, everything stays relatively smooth. Have you tested this issue?
Yes and no. How small chunks the audio clip?
Make some music!

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 am

DjFralo wrote: 980 ti, yes Live uses openGL and they are changing to Metal2 as this is necessary because Apple will remove support for openGL. The issue is introduced in 10.0.2, every version after 10.0.2 has the stutter issues. 10.0.1 does not have this issue. I cannot find any old beta’s so I can’t check where exactly they messed up.
You got something there. This could explain my absence of any issues as my hardware doesn't support Metal, even less Metal2. Unfortunately the Hackintosh I use sometimes is down so can't check there. I'll try with a MBP 2015 later in the week.

You have a suggestion how to set up a test other than short audio clips?
Make some music!

DjFralo
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by DjFralo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:15 am

Stromkraft wrote:
Yes and no. How small chunks the audio clip?
Please watch my video in 60fps to see how I tested the performance. As you can see, I chopped up the audio clip, by using cmd+e or control+e on the audio clip. Make sure you have many different small audio clips, then save this project and open it up on different versions of ableton or different computers and compare the performance. Doing this test I saw that 10.0.1 is pretty smooth while 10.0.3b6 is showing absolutely horrible lag.

https://youtu.be/pOLyfEXzhPA

kj
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:23 am

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by kj » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:27 am

DjFralo wrote:980 ti, yes Live uses openGL and they are changing to Metal2 as this is necessary because Apple will remove support for openGL. The issue is introduced in 10.0.2, every version after 10.0.2 has the stutter issues. 10.0.1 does not have this issue. I cannot find any old beta’s so I can’t check where exactly they messed up.
This is not entirely true, Apple is not removing OpenGL (and OpenCL for that matter), support is deprecated and only minor changes and fixes will be applied. Yes, in the future Metal2 is the way to go, that doesn't mean that as of the release of MacOS 10.14 suddenly all OpenGL applications stop working. It means that development effort from Apple on OpenGL will be as minimal as possible (which it already was) and somewhere in a future release it won't be available anymore.

szdjfNuG
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Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by szdjfNuG » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:24 pm

hello

i had the same problem, low framerate (maybe 60hz) and monitor had some kind of cyclic waves vibrations in ableton only.

i have a 165hz G-sync monitor and the difference is alot visible.

fortunatly i have solved it in the nvidia control panel, at application tab i have added ableton live, now i am able to deactivate G-sync for ableton only.

also i can choose max fixed frame rate to get back the very smooth move on the VST and other windows in ableton when i have 165hz activated

Image

PKimchi
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:10 am

Re: GUI LAG FIXED!! ---> Downgrade to 10.0.1 from 10.0.3b6

Post by PKimchi » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:13 am

I found A solution For GTX/Nvidia Graphic Card users. Open Control panel For Nvidia(Nvidia Control Panel) then use these settings for nvidia. Image Image Image If you set all these settings as is it should run smooth. But you have to restart Ableton Live once.

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