How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
jlgrimes
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Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by jlgrimes » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:46 pm

fishmonkey wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:31 am
the simple answer is don't use high-latency mastering-grade processors when tracking!

if it's losing the settings that is the issue, a workaround is to save the current settings as a preset so you can quickly reload the plugin when you are done with tracking...
Pretty much this.

During the rough mixing phase, I would stick with zero latency to minimal latency plugins if possible. Usually to get a decent sounding mix, those plugins aren't needed anyways. Any lookahead or extreme oversampled stuff should be disabled or not used.

Scoox
Posts: 244
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Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by Scoox » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:14 pm

jlgrimes wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:46 pm
fishmonkey wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:31 am
the simple answer is don't use high-latency mastering-grade processors when tracking!

if it's losing the settings that is the issue, a workaround is to save the current settings as a preset so you can quickly reload the plugin when you are done with tracking...
Pretty much this.

During the rough mixing phase, I would stick with zero latency to minimal latency plugins if possible. Usually to get a decent sounding mix, those plugins aren't needed anyways. Any lookahead or extreme oversampled stuff should be disabled or not used.
We should be able to take devices 100% offline with a click of the mouse. If we have to start turning off individual settings within each different plugin it's just a hassle. Other DAWs have a bypass button and an offline button, two separate things. Ableton Live needs, in addition to the existing activator button, an offline option (possibly in the device context menu).

But yeah, at this time the best available solution is what you guys have said.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by Scoox » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:16 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:19 pm
Reduced latency is for reducing latency while you are monitoring.

Delay compensation is for offsetting recorded clips when you are not using reduced latency (or for very fine offsetting just from your interface).

Delay Compensation is used when you are using ‘zero latency’ monitoring setups, where you are hearing direct from your guitar for instance, playing along to a ‘playback’ of your audio session. If you did not compensate, then the guitar track would be delayed from how it was intended to be performed. And if you weren’t doing the ‘zero latency’ setup, you’d Hear an audible delay while you’re actually playing, where the sound comes late, resulting in an unnatural take.
So basically when would you want to turn off delay compensation?

jlgrimes
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Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by jlgrimes » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:09 pm

Scoox wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:14 pm
jlgrimes wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:46 pm
fishmonkey wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:31 am
the simple answer is don't use high-latency mastering-grade processors when tracking!

if it's losing the settings that is the issue, a workaround is to save the current settings as a preset so you can quickly reload the plugin when you are done with tracking...
Pretty much this.

During the rough mixing phase, I would stick with zero latency to minimal latency plugins if possible. Usually to get a decent sounding mix, those plugins aren't needed anyways. Any lookahead or extreme oversampled stuff should be disabled or not used.
We should be able to take devices 100% offline with a click of the mouse. If we have to start turning off individual settings within each different plugin it's just a hassle. Other DAWs have a bypass button and an offline button, two separate things. Ableton Live needs, in addition to the existing activator button, an offline option (possibly in the device context menu).

But yeah, at this time the best available solution is what you guys have said.
Im all for a cleaner way to handle this. Studio One dual buffer mode is pretty interesting although it is not 100 perfect.

An offline option is probably all that is needed though.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by Scoox » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:09 pm

jlgrimes wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:09 pm
An offline option is probably all that is needed though.
I'd say it's the simplest and most intuitive way. If it could be automated, it would be even better. For example, does a CPU hungry instance of Diva that plays a 4-bar synth solo need to be online for the duration of the project? With automation, we could enable the plugin a bar or two before it's needed to ensure its ready to hit the ground running, and then take it back offline once it's job is done, leaving precious CPU cycles available for other plugins to devour.

jestermgee
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Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by jestermgee » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:14 am

Scoox wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:09 pm
jlgrimes wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:09 pm
An offline option is probably all that is needed though.
I'd say it's the simplest and most intuitive way. If it could be automated, it would be even better. For example, does a CPU hungry instance of Diva that plays a 4-bar synth solo need to be online for the duration of the project? With automation, we could enable the plugin a bar or two before it's needed to ensure its ready to hit the ground running, and then take it back offline once it's job is done, leaving precious CPU cycles available for other plugins to devour.
The issue is that CPU intensive plugins that report a large delay and have it compensated for would have to remove this delay when taken offline which would cause a large glitch in audio. The "offline" option is not designed to be used with automation for this reason as you cannot adjust the latency on-the-fly without causing a shift in time. It is designed for those situations where you may need to switch from a mixing perspective to a production perspective and switch off plugins that cause large latency for a moment.

I can certainly agree that these kinds of high latency effects should only be added in at the "end" of the production stage but also know that sometimes (often) you may be at that stage and be half way through mixing levels but then want/need to make some sequence changes or re-record some new parts where you really need to take that delay out and deleting the plugins is a PITA, a simple offline mode that basically does that same thing only leaves the instance in tact to be restored would be welcomed.

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by Scoox » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:49 pm

jestermgee wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:14 am
Scoox wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:09 pm
jlgrimes wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:09 pm
An offline option is probably all that is needed though.
I'd say it's the simplest and most intuitive way. If it could be automated, it would be even better. For example, does a CPU hungry instance of Diva that plays a 4-bar synth solo need to be online for the duration of the project? With automation, we could enable the plugin a bar or two before it's needed to ensure its ready to hit the ground running, and then take it back offline once it's job is done, leaving precious CPU cycles available for other plugins to devour.
The issue is that CPU intensive plugins that report a large delay and have it compensated for would have to remove this delay when taken offline which would cause a large glitch in audio. The "offline" option is not designed to be used with automation for this reason as you cannot adjust the latency on-the-fly without causing a shift in time. It is designed for those situations where you may need to switch from a mixing perspective to a production perspective and switch off plugins that cause large latency for a moment.

I can certainly agree that these kinds of high latency effects should only be added in at the "end" of the production stage but also know that sometimes (often) you may be at that stage and be half way through mixing levels but then want/need to make some sequence changes or re-record some new parts where you really need to take that delay out and deleting the plugins is a PITA, a simple offline mode that basically does that same thing only leaves the instance in tact to be restored would be welcomed.
You are 100% right about it not being possible to automate the offline button. As for the other points, it seems we are on the same page.

maokus
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2022 3:26 am

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by maokus » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:58 am

Angstrom wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:52 pm

SECOND Live is a live-stage capable application, so while other DAWs will take a deactivated plugin out of the latency calculation when they are deactivated Live does not. when plugins on the master are deactivated it does not recalculate the latency of the audio streams and re-sync them with the new plugin delay calculation - because on stage that would make a big POP noise through the PA. So, Live does not do that. It aims to maintain glitch-free audio. Deactivated plugins are still used to calculate the offset of all tracks fed through them .
Thanks for the detailed answer! I've read through this thread, and while I still don't entirely understand the technical considerations for it, I get that there is at least some sort of reasoning for why this happens :D

Still though, I use live for quickly bashing out musical ideas and experiments, and having the ability to factor out a plugin's delay time from calculation temporarily, even if it causes a popping sound, would be nice. Would there be any reason not to have an option for that? e.g. right click on a device -> "remove from delay calculation" or something

fishmonkey
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by fishmonkey » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:06 am

maokus wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:58 am
having the ability to factor out a plugin's delay time from calculation temporarily, even if it causes a popping sound, would be nice. Would there be any reason not to have an option for that? e.g. right click on a device -> "remove from delay calculation" or something
one of the main reasons i can think of is that it would create a new potential PEBKAC issue. even if there was a simple global setting it would be an easy mistake to forget to switch the mode for stage use and then inadvertently cause playback glitches. a glitch through a big powerful sound system is not fun for anyone!

Scoox
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:14 am

Re: How to bypass high latency plugins while tracking?

Post by Scoox » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:17 pm

I wrote to Steve Duda (Serum developer) to report a bug related to the bypass wrapper button in Ableton. He said this:
VST3 bypass is different than VST2 bypass, where VST3 decides it's up to the manufacturer what Bypass means (plugin is still active), where VST2 would literally stop processing on the plug-in.
This means some plugins will continue processing audio, and therefore using system resources, even when bypassed, which is why users need to have more control over how software uses their system resources. I'm not even talking about latency here, just resource usage. I definitely would like my bypassed plugins to stop processing completely.

It doesn't matter if Live is a stage-capable application, because everybody uses it as a production tool, arguably more than on stage. Live may have started as a tool for live performance, but it has, perhaps unexpectedly evolved into the most popular production environment.

This needs to be an option. Bypass, Offline, and an option to force processing to stop when bypassed. I know none of this will happen. 10 years later we will still be complaining about this and Ableton won't care.

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