This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Puddi
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This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Puddi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:47 pm

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What I'm talking about is how whenever you move notes in the piano roll they always initially move freely before snapping to the next grid line. So the "Snap to Grid" option is not absolute but some weird hybrid mode.

Can anyone explain to me what this is good for? If I wanted to move notes freely I would just hold down the modifier key to temporarily disable the grid. The current behavior is just confusing and more often than not I find myself moving notes slightly off-grid by accident. My solution right now is to always first move the notes left/right a couple of times to initiate the snapping but I don't think it should have to be like that.

Anyone else annoyed by this?

Angstrom
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Angstrom » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:57 pm

I think there is only me and you who think that.

I think there should be an option to have "normal snap mode" in addition to the smart snap.

I made a suggestion on the L9 Centercode and the L10 Centercode, the suggestions did not get that much attention. I think, somehow, most people enjoy this weird aggravating snap system.

I am VERY glad that automation snapping has become optional in the betas, but not snapping remains this way with no options for snappy snap. And I dont think it will ever change.

Puddi
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Puddi » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:37 am

Angstrom wrote:I think there is only me and you who think that.

I think there should be an option to have "normal snap mode" in addition to the smart snap.

I made a suggestion on the L9 Centercode and the L10 Centercode, the suggestions did not get that much attention. I think, somehow, most people enjoy this weird aggravating snap system.

I am VERY glad that automation snapping has become optional in the betas, but not snapping remains this way with no options for snappy snap. And I dont think it will ever change.
Yeah, I don't understand how no one else seem to be bothered by this. It's like they haven't used a DAW where you don't constantly need to (consciously or subconsciously) compensate for weird snapping behavior, like Reaper for example:

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[jur]
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by [jur] » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:44 pm

I'm not a on-the-grid person at all, but I've never really been bothered by this snapping behaviour.
Maybe because I'm used to cmd+arrow, cmd+4 to deactivate the grid and cmd+2 to make the gris smaller.
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Angstrom
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Angstrom » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:30 pm

I use those keys too, also I use alt-drag to drag reliably off the gid.
But what is weird is - I do not have a key option to enforce on-grid notes!

It's possible to accidentally nudge notes off the grid with an accidental drag action. If I selected a note and the pointer is held down as if I was intending to move it ... but change my mind, perhaps I am distracted as I accidentally move the mouse a fraction before releasing and without traversing a grid line - in this case the note is now off the grid. User error, yes, and rare. Perhaps 1 in 100 mouse actions cause this. But when it happens it is not noticed and that means I have a note, or clip, out of time.
Usually only noticed months later.

REPRODUCE:
  1. Adaptive grid: medium
  2. Place a note on bar 32 of a clip - make the note 1 bar long.
  3. Extend the clip to 64 bars
  4. Zoom out to see the 64 bars, your adaptive zoom should be showing 8/1
  5. Hold down your mouse button on the single note you created.
  6. Release the mouse button.
  7. there is now a chance that this note is off the grid, it might not be, it might be, you'll need to do it 100 times to find out and zoom in and check every time.
I have put this to Ableton and they have said (as I recall)... "user error. We've had no other complaints, auto-snap is working as designed"
OK, that's a valid point of view I guess. But I'm not saying to get rid of Auto-Snap, I'm saying "why is there not a modifier which enforces hard snap like every other DAW has and Live used to have?"

The system has improved through the years and iterations but I still contend that the base level of music is "notes are in time" and it's not unreasonable to suggest that Live provides a basic ALWAYS SNAP mode.

All other DAWs which provide auto-snap ALSO provide hard-snap modes. Only Live does not provide the basic always snap to the grid..

Example of what other DAWs do with their auto-snap options
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timday
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by timday » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:51 pm

Angstrom wrote:I think there is only me and you who think that.

I think there should be an option to have "normal snap mode" in addition to the smart snap.
No, it annoys the hell out of me as well. At least it's not as bad as when it first appeared and trying to move notes vertically would reliably move them off grid. Or maybe I've become used to using arrow keys for that.

Angstrom
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Angstrom » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:20 pm

They've definitely improved it over the years.
But they seem confused that sometimes we just need the snap tool, not the auto-snap tool.
No matter how amazing a tool it is, sometimes its still the wrong tool for the job.
Last edited by Angstrom on Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jestermgee
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by jestermgee » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:21 pm

Arrow keys and modifiers are much more accurate and convenient anyway than pushing bricks with a mouse. Once you get to learn the keys it is far quicker to navigate your notes, move them, resize, offset with the keyboard. Not a huge deal really.

Angstrom
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Angstrom » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:24 pm

jestermgee wrote:Arrow keys and modifiers are much more accurate and convenient anyway than pushing bricks with a mouse. Once you get to learn the keys it is far quicker to navigate your notes, move them, resize, offset with the keyboard. Not a huge deal really.
I'm glad itsn't a huge deal for you. That must mean its not an issue for anyone. Solid logic there.

I'll remember to quote that next time you have an issue. "not a huge deal"

jestermgee
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by jestermgee » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:31 pm

Angstrom wrote:
jestermgee wrote:Arrow keys and modifiers are much more accurate and convenient anyway than pushing bricks with a mouse. Once you get to learn the keys it is far quicker to navigate your notes, move them, resize, offset with the keyboard. Not a huge deal really.
I'm glad itsn't a huge deal for you. That must mean its not an issue for anyone. Solid logic there.

I'll remember to quote that next time you have an issue. "not a huge deal"
Calm down angrystrom (geez)

I rarely have issues to complain about on these forums, I tend to just find solutions and plug on. Of course some small things affect users in different ways. I didn't state it wasn't an issue, just (to me) doesn't seem like it's a big issue given there are ways to work around it, even just disable grid with a key.

I'll see myself out of this one, touched a raw nerve there somewhere.

pottering
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by pottering » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:14 am

It is because you are moving within the range in which the note not move at all (if it worked like you propose).

Clicking and dragging, but not seeing any change from that action would confuse and aggravate a lot more people.

Way more unsatisfying to take an action with the mouse and see no result whatsoever.

And the same situation ("accidentally nudge notes off the grid with an accidental drag action") can also happen with the proposed "hard-snap mode", with the smaller (well, "shorter") grids.

In fact, it can happen even with the larger grids, if you are very zoomed-out, and didn't check the part by listening before saving.

So it is a option that only really helps very few people, in a very small set of conditions, and it doesn't even make the action (clicking) safe, as you people want.

stringtapper
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by stringtapper » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:50 pm

pottering wrote:It is because you are moving within the range in which the note not move at all (if it worked like you propose).

Clicking and dragging, but not seeing any change from that action would confuse and aggravate a lot more people.

Way more unsatisfying to take an action with the mouse and see no result whatsoever.
This is how I see it too. I mean, isn't the feature essentially just a form of visual feedback to let you know that you are, in fact, moving the note?

Although now that I'm messing around with it I see that it only happens until the first snap point you hit. After that if you still have the mouse held down the note will snap directly as you drag it to different parts of the grid. Seems weird.

I've talked myself into a neutral position on this matter. :lol:
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Angstrom
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Angstrom » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:36 pm

Now I'm looking again at the drag icon... It was an odd choice they made.

That icon looks like the one commonly used for "Document", it's not really saying "drag" or "move off the grid" or anything like that is it?
There are a bunch of cursors more appropriate for move pointers (EG ones with arrows). I wonder why exactly they settled on "document". Its very weird.

Puddi
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Puddi » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:59 pm

[jur] wrote:I'm not a on-the-grid person at all, but I've never really been bothered by this snapping behaviour.
Maybe because I'm used to cmd+arrow, cmd+4 to deactivate the grid and cmd+2 to make the gris smaller.
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Fair enough, but I don't really see the point of this. The ALT + drag (on Windows) already works perfectly if you want to move notes off-grid.
jestermgee wrote:Arrow keys and modifiers are much more accurate and convenient anyway than pushing bricks with a mouse. Once you get to learn the keys it is far quicker to navigate your notes, move them, resize, offset with the keyboard. Not a huge deal really.
Obviously it's not a problem if you only move notes with the keyboard arrows. That's not the point here.

Puddi
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Re: This note snapping behavior is stupid and should be fixed

Post by Puddi » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:23 pm

pottering wrote:It is because you are moving within the range in which the note not move at all (if it worked like you propose).

Clicking and dragging, but not seeing any change from that action would confuse and aggravate a lot more people.

Way more unsatisfying to take an action with the mouse and see no result whatsoever.

And the same situation ("accidentally nudge notes off the grid with an accidental drag action") can also happen with the proposed "hard-snap mode", with the smaller (well, "shorter") grids.
No, you wouldn't have the same problem with a "hard-snap mode" since that's exactly the point of such a mode - it would obey the grid 100% so it wouldn't be possible to accidentally nudge notes off the grid, just like pretty much every other DAW does it.
pottering wrote:In fact, it can happen even with the larger grids, if you are very zoomed-out, and didn't check the part by listening before saving.
That's what the adaptive grid is there for. The notes would only snap to the currently visible grid lines at any zoom level.
pottering wrote:So it is a option that only really helps very few people, in a very small set of conditions, and it doesn't even make the action (clicking) safe, as you people want.
Again, I have yet to see a good argument for why this is needed. We already have modifier keys for disabling the grid while dragging notes. And I'm not even saying they need to change it, just add an option.

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