Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

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re:dream
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Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by re:dream » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 am

I'm running Live 10.0.5

I am preparing a series of tracks for a DJ set. BPM varies between 120 and 125 bpm I am warping using Complex Pro.

Warping seems to work, but:

The segment bpm value of every single track is reported as 120.48 - regardless of the actual tempo.

Has anyone encountered this?

Image

yur2die4
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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:08 pm

That is just the tempo between warp markers, where the cursor currently is.

So this really depends on where your cursor is. If it is before or after the meat of the song, it shouldn’t have much influence, but it would be the result of the order in which you’re adding the markers.

When you add a warp marker after another marker that exists earlier in the timeline, ifmthere sre no markers later on in the time line, everything after that marker stays the tempo that the region was just as you added that marker. So if you add a marker THEN stretch, the remainder of the track After that marker will still be the old bpm value. But if you align the grid first, Then add the marker, all of the region after that marker will now be a lot closer to the intended bpm.

If your final result is clips that stay in sync with one another, it shouldn’t really be a problem. Just make sure you place the cursor in the meat of the song when determining the bpm, instead of on the extremities of the beginning before markers or the very end.

re:dream
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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by re:dream » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:04 pm

This happens irrespective of where the cursor is.

The song is perfectly beatmatched. But the 120.48 value is returned, irrespective of the actual bpm of the song, and irrespective of where the cursor is

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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 pm

Alright. I’m not at my computer, perhaps selecting different warp markers show different bpm? The only other possibility is that maybe somehow the audio file is 120.49 bpm. If it is properly warped, you can’t really argue with what the seg bpm displays. But again, segment bpm does depend on sections of the clip. I just don’t for sure recall which type of selection it is influenced by. I do know that it tells the bpm from one warp marker to the next warp marker.

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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by cotdagoo » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:09 pm

It may be a case of not setting the warp markers EXACTLY on the transient peak of the beat.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell exactly where the kick begins depending on how it was produced. If there's a low attack and it's punchier - it may be easier to tell, but if there's elements of the kick that are layered, even potentially staggered ahead/behind the kick - or extra fx/sound... then Live's guess at the transient can be questionable.. (at least this is how I have perceived Seg BPM values). This is also why I assume the first warp marker is rarely placed in the right spot when a track is dragged into Live.

In a perfect world, in a song you produced and know the exact BPM, placement of kicks.. there's a good chance the Seg BPM value would be a whole number.

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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by re:dream » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:57 pm

Live is not guessing the beat wrong - the kick is exactly on the transient, and it is perfectly in time with the metronome (I know how to warp a track).

Irrespective of where the cursor is, the seg bpm for some tracks is the same. And it's not out by a little. Reporting 120.48 bpm for a track that's actually 125 is a lot.

cotdagoo
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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by cotdagoo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:59 am

re:dream wrote:Live is not guessing the beat wrong - the kick is exactly on the transient, and it is perfectly in time with the metronome (I know how to warp a track).

Irrespective of where the cursor is, the seg bpm for some tracks is the same. And it's not out by a little. Reporting 120.48 bpm for a track that's actually 125 is a lot.
I'm not saying Live was guessing the beat wrong, just used it as a similar example of the imperfect art of finding the exact transient of a kick in a mix with other elements.

ie: Live detected this as a transient.. why? maybe that's where the transient "should" be in relation to the others.. maybe part of the kick is muted or there's production ducking part of the audio.. my point was it can be difficult to find a transient sometimes.. but you know how to warp a track...
Image

It's weird that beatport reports this track pictured in your first post as being 122 BPM.. but you seem to have landed on 120.48 BPM somehow? But also think it should be 125 BPM??

Curious, I decided to give it a shot myself.. (I know you know how to warp a track) and landed at a perfect 122 BPM..

Image

Weird right?

How did you manage 120.48?? Every warp marker I put in was within .05 of 122

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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by Tarekith » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:16 am

What's the tempo of your live project? I've seen this a few times myself where Live would think every single clip was the same tempo as the project file.

re:dream
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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by re:dream » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:54 pm

It might be that the tempo of the project was at 120.48 when I originally imported the tracks.

Anyway: I closed live, reopened it, and switched warp off for the offending tracks.

When I switched warp on again, and re-warped them, the mistake disappeared.

So it's an intermittent fault.

I will report it as a bug if and when it next appears.

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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by re:dream » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:03 pm

cotdagoo wrote: It's weird that beatport reports this track pictured in your first post as being 122 BPM.. but you seem to have landed on 120.48 BPM somehow? But also think it should be 125 BPM??
...
I expressed myself unclearly

Some tracks are 125, some 124, some 122 (e.g. the Eelke Kleijn), some 120. All of them are reported as being 120.48 even after being correctly warped

Anyway, problem is gone. All the tracks are now showing up correctly.
Last edited by re:dream on Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

re:dream
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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by re:dream » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:23 pm

cotdagoo wrote: ie: Live detected this as a transient.. why? maybe that's where the transient "should" be in relation to the others.. maybe part of the kick is muted or there's production ducking part of the audio.. my point was it can be difficult to find a transient sometimes.. but you know how to warp a track...
Image

Yes, I am aware of this diffifculty Live has 8)

So when I warp a track I zoom in very close, and then, using loopbrace set to 8 or 16, go all the way through the track making sure the alignment is perfect

So if it looks like it does on your screenshot, I create a warp marker there and drag it so that it is properly aligned, using the high frequency waveform that indicates the 'snap' of the kick drum.

Sometimes as you scrub through in close up, you can see the kick drifting off: a few milliseconds more every 8 bars, until it is as much as a 16th or even an 8th note out at the end.

I then make sure that I fix the transient right at the end of the track, and then it pulls all the others into perfect alignment.

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Re: Live posts weird values in 'Seg BPM'

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:31 pm

What you’ve just described is good practice, except in the order you’ve described it, it will be a mild headache during the process. Ideally, you would move the transient first, drag the transient, and then add the marker. This ensures that everything further down will also alight more closely based on your decision.

If you do not do this order, you’ll constantly be needing to adjust because they’ll constantly retain the original bpm.

Dragging the transient requires holding down CTRL if I recall.

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