NEW APC???

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:58 pm

scheffkoch wrote:"this thing replaces Push 2, an audio card, and a laptop for live performance.
3 into one, that definitely has a market"


...not really i reckon...afaik the mpc live doesn't have the ability to load synth or fx vst/au plugins when used stand alone...
It has four synths, and is obviously a sampler in stand alone, that's all good to me, no conflicts ever.

My big WTF? with this is it's lack of integration into AKAI's ecosystem. It's going to work seamlessly with Ableton Live, big screen displaying things useable like Touch OSC etc. But in terms of the software it runs, it's a modified version of the MPC2 software, up in the air how it integrates to the computer beyond integration with Live, and it doesn't seem to be able to run the MPC2 software that makes the MPC line integrate with the computer so smoothly as a VST and as it's own MPC DAW. IMO they kind of dropped the ball there, my favorite thing about Live 10 was the way it made Push 2 just as smooth as butter integrated into Live compared to older versions. So they're going to try to compete with that, compete with your DAW for live use, and not really integrate into the MPC2 that well.. Time will tell but I'm still sort of confused by the sideways move there.

Seriously, this thing is looking like the perfect companion for Ableton Live, where Ableton make their own software, it's running a tweaked version of the MPC OS, that doesn't allow it as a VST in other DAWs etc. Hopefully AKAI figure this out but I'm just sort of underwhelmed by this lateral movement.

starving student
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by starving student » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:15 pm

if there is no warp marker tech going on then it's a non-starter, it doesn't make sense for any company to copy ablutions workflow without the warp markers, that's the whole kit & caboodle Imho, the things you can do by manipulating warp markers is the stuff that heaven is made of... just time stretching loops so they sync together is not a reason to give up push.

Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:08 pm

starving student wrote:if there is no warp marker tech going on then it's a non-starter, it doesn't make sense for any company to copy ablutions workflow without the warp markers, that's the whole kit & caboodle Imho, the things you can do by manipulating warp markers is the stuff that heaven is made of... just time stretching loops so they sync together is not a reason to give up push.
Exactly, although I think at first thing Force is looking like it will integrate well with Live, and allow you to leave the laptop, sound card and Push2 in the studio when performing live.. It seems to be how they're trying to market it anyway. But if you don't want to use Live then it should have 100% MPC functionality, and improved warping. It's filling a weird slot as it stands. If they were being smart about it, right out the door there would be Bitwig compatibility too.

scheffkoch
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by scheffkoch » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:28 am

"...allow you to leave the laptop, sound card and Push2 in the studio when performing live..."

...not for me...afaik with force you can't load 3rd party vst like synths and fx...
macbook pro late 2016, osx 10.13.6, rme multiface via sonnet thunderbolt expresscard adapter + thunderbolt to usb-c adapter, ableton live 10.0.1, push 2, komplete 9, maschine 2.7.6, touchable

S4racen
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by S4racen » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:40 am

Maybe that's referring to turning MIDI tracks into audio and exporting to Force, as it can only have 8 tracks there would be a defined workflow that isn't altogether yet apparent...

Cheers
D

Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:46 am

S4racen wrote:Maybe that's referring to turning MIDI tracks into audio and exporting to Force, as it can only have 8 tracks there would be a defined workflow that isn't altogether yet apparent...

Cheers
D
8 regular audio tracks. it can have 8 built in instrument tracks and 128 drum, sampler or MIDI tracks.
There are a few things not entirely worked out in the software. Big ones are no disk streaming so everything is running on 2GB of RAM, no side chaining, and no multiple MIDI inputs.

Most peoples current Live sets would probably work out just fine. but disc streaming is a big WTF? it's running on a surface tablet basically, and it has a place for an SSD so they need to get that worked out. The next version of the MPC software will reveal a lot of what they have in mind, and how it works with the Force etc.

scheffkoch
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by scheffkoch » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:44 am

"Most peoples current Live sets would probably work out just fine"

...how can that be when people use ableton plugins and m4l...?...do you think the majority of ableton uses only use audio clips?...maybe i'm wrong but i assume people do use midi and m4l when performing...
macbook pro late 2016, osx 10.13.6, rme multiface via sonnet thunderbolt expresscard adapter + thunderbolt to usb-c adapter, ableton live 10.0.1, push 2, komplete 9, maschine 2.7.6, touchable

starving student
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by starving student » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:26 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
starving student wrote:if there is no warp marker tech going on then it's a non-starter, it doesn't make sense for any company to copy ablutions workflow without the warp markers, that's the whole kit & caboodle Imho, the things you can do by manipulating warp markers is the stuff that heaven is made of... just time stretching loops so they sync together is not a reason to give up push.
Exactly, although I think at first thing Force is looking like it will integrate well with Live, and allow you to leave the laptop, sound card and Push2 in the studio when performing live.. It seems to be how they're trying to market it anyway. But if you don't want to use Live then it should have 100% MPC functionality, and improved warping. It's filling a weird slot as it stands. If they were being smart about it, right out the door there would be Bitwig compatibility too.
unless they really have a good plan moving forward and make it available to be known then I think this price point is on shaky ground.. I want one
for sure, but I've got to the words warp marker come out of their mouths, if they do that then the price will be worth it... I think they will implement disk streaming since they seem to be open to implementing streaming on the mpcs, I also think both platforms will get side chain.
I think the way forward is clear if they want to have a positive outcome just comes down to if they wanna do it or not, but right now they'd have to pry my push 2 out of cold dead hands before I'd give it up

Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:56 pm

scheffkoch wrote:"Most peoples current Live sets would probably work out just fine"

...how can that be when people use ableton plugins and m4l...?...do you think the majority of ableton uses only use audio clips?...maybe i'm wrong but i assume people do use midi and m4l when performing...
Honestly I don't really do much with M4L, the whole integration of M4L left me cold. Live was always the easiest most intuitive DAW out there, then they added in object oriented coding. To a DAW that doesn't have SysEx, MPE, Polyphonic Aftertouch, user assignable keyboard shortcuts, an audio editor, event editor, score editor etc. etc. etc. It's just an awkward fit, it's great for those who don't want or need those things, but to me it's just kind of a huge WTF?

I use Live now mostly for clip launching, and warping. Performance wise, I get that people are comfortable with Max, but to me that was always some potentially buggy code to begin with, Pluggo was never that stable of a VST and Cycling admitted they were happy to give it up VST support with it, ( you could build things in Max/MSP and port it to Pluggo to load as a VST, VSTi ), to me this is exactly why Force is going to have some customers. It's one developer, VST's etc. on your computer will have to be printed to audio to run in stand alone. The included instruments and FX are embedded plug ins, they're not crashing or bringing in conflicts on someone's system etc.

So that's all a plus to some in a live environment.

Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:02 am

starving student wrote: unless they really have a good plan moving forward and make it available to be known then I think this price point is on shaky ground.. I want one
for sure, but I've got to the words warp marker come out of their mouths, if they do that then the price will be worth it... I think they will implement disk streaming since they seem to be open to implementing streaming on the mpcs, I also think both platforms will get side chain.
I think the way forward is clear if they want to have a positive outcome just comes down to if they wanna do it or not, but right now they'd have to pry my push 2 out of cold dead hands before I'd give it up
Hear you, I'm not buying it until I hear more about how it integrates with the existing MPC line, which they're 100% ignoring in their videos and info on it so far.

I don't need it, it would have to include a guitar amp sim that was outstanding in order for me to be able to give up the laptop and Push 2, plus I feel most of the improvements that Force is going to give should come to the MPC Live which I already own.

Plus I'm using Reaper a lot lately and Möss a great german coder gives away this outstanding Push 2 for Reaper program he made, it's ridiculous how good it is. So two out of my main three DAWs use Push 2, and my bet is Force will only work with Ableton Live, and I'm still confused as to how they sandbox MPC2 software with it? because they're saying it can't run as a VSTi in a DAW like the MPC2 software can???

Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:48 am

Video showing Ableton integration, smooth transitioning between the two anyway, good job on that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz0jcf0fy5s

dsy73
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by dsy73 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:45 am

Detailed review of the Akai Force and a comparison with Push 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm8Z9I5D9Jw

Source: https://loopopmusic.com/akai-force-vs-a ... er-for-you

Machinesworking
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Re: NEW APC???

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:19 am

dsy73 wrote:Detailed review of the Akai Force and a comparison with Push 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm8Z9I5D9Jw

Source: https://loopopmusic.com/akai-force-vs-a ... er-for-you
man, they did a good job barring that gnarring omission, they compare Push 2 with Force without mentioning the controller mode it can do with Ableton Live.

I mean I get it in a way in that it's a feature that's coming up, and you will have to own Ableton Live, but to be a fair comparison they should have at least given a nod to it. You have to own Live for Push to work as well. :x

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