Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

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mightyhor
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Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by mightyhor » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:05 pm

For example, when sending a track through a return that has a filter on it, when I reduce the filter frequency such that no sound should be coming out you can still hear the original signal.

Send is at 100%, filter is 100% wet, and the filter frequency has an effect as it reaches the relevant frequencies in the source sound.

If you change the track output from 'master' to 'sends only' then the filter does have the desired effect, but obviously as I move the send level down from 100% the sound gradually disappears to nothing, even if the filter is covering all of the frequency bands.

Further, putting the same filter directly on to the track itself has the desired effect – i.e. reducing the filter frequency eventually reduces all output to zero.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I always thought that in sending a track to a return that's 100% wet you are mixing the two signals – i.e. at 0% send you have a 100% original signal, at 50% you have a 50/50 original/return signal, at 100% a 100% return signal, etc. – but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Incidentally, this appears to happen whatever effect is put on the return, but it's easiest to test it using a filter.

chrk
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by chrk » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:33 pm

mightyhor wrote:Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?
It's the dry sound - read: 'without effect' or 'original signal' - that will always come through.
mightyhor wrote:For example, when sending a track through a return that has a filter on it, when I reduce the filter frequency such that no sound should be coming out you can still hear the original signal.
That's exactly what's supposed to happen when sending a signal to not through the return, returns are parallel signal paths to the original track.
mightyhor wrote:I always thought that in sending a track to a return that's 100% wet you are mixing the two signals – i.e. at 0% send you have a 100% original signal, at 50% you have a 50/50 original/return signal, at 100% a 100% return signal, etc. – but this doesn't seem to be the case.
No, the amount of send does not affect the track volume. You're not mixing the two signals but adding to the original.

To add to your confusion return tracks have a pre- or post fader option - pre: the signal sent to the return is not affected by the original track's fader; post: pull down the fader and the signal sent to the return gets weaker too.

garyboozy
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by garyboozy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:37 pm

change the send track's output from 'master' to 'sends only'

mightyhor
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by mightyhor » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:46 pm

That's exactly what's supposed to happen when sending a signal to not through the return
Thanks both for replying, extremely useful.

Is there a way to send a signal through the return without using 'send only', such that you get the dry/wet mix I described?

garyboozy
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by garyboozy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:51 pm

set sends to 'pre' instead of 'post' and turn the send track's fader down

mightyhor
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by mightyhor » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:47 pm

mightyhor wrote:set sends to 'pre' instead of 'post' and turn the send track's fader down
Brilliant, thanks.

Is there any way of also using returns that are used across other tracks, such as reverbs, that are set to 'post'. I'm guessing this isn't possible as the fader is now at zero and so no 'post' returns will be receiving a signal, but it seems like an obvious thing to want to do.

yur2die4
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by yur2die4 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:50 pm

People used to do an old trick where there would also be an inverted version of the original when they used send / return effects so that the inverted signal would cancel out the original as you increased your send.

Ways to do this would either involve mapping the send to multiple returns, one that does phase cancellation, or maybe creating a rack in parallel.... not sure how well that’d work thigh because there might be a bit more potential latency. It’s all pretty messy. But yeah, maybe play with that idea.

To do the inverted audio just rack up your filter and put a Utility in a parallel chain with Phz L and R on. ...again, not 100% sure this will work. Might depend on whether or not you have reduced turned on or off. Which is a whole other can of worms.

For this to work you’d want your normal audio channel still going to Master.

mightyhor
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Re: Why does 'wet' sound still come through when using return?

Post by mightyhor » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:33 pm

Thanks for such a detailed response.

I guess the simple answer is that you need to apply the reverb to the track itself, rather than on the return.

The problem I have is that I want to apply it simultaneously to two tracks that I cannot group together, as they are both already part of a grouping, but that's just an organisation issue I need to rectify.

Cheers again!

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