It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
ShelLuser
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It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by ShelLuser » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:40 pm

1 day after I had bought Live, now almost 10 years ago, I bought Propellerhead's Reason instead of Komplete (which seemed to be the common go-to setup) and over the years this combination has never failed nor disappointed. In the mean while I upgraded Live to version 9 (last weekend I got 10 + Push) and I upgraded Reason to version 6 which I also upgraded to the latest last weekend (version 10).

As said: rewire never failed nor disappointed. I even learned ways to (ab)use Thor to send midi data out of Reason over audio channels!

But all of that is going to change this month.... Reason 11 has been announced and one of its key features I am very much interested in is the "rack plugin". In other words: the ability to insert the whole Reason rack (with all its instruments and crazy routing options) into any other DAW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPYbkUc205k

And as a die-hard Live fan I also think it's very cool to see how all their plugin examples start with a Live setup :)
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the Big Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Komplete 12.
Blog: SynthFan

jlgrimes
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by jlgrimes » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:38 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:40 pm
1 day after I had bought Live, now almost 10 years ago, I bought Propellerhead's Reason instead of Komplete (which seemed to be the common go-to setup) and over the years this combination has never failed nor disappointed. In the mean while I upgraded Live to version 9 (last weekend I got 10 + Push) and I upgraded Reason to version 6 which I also upgraded to the latest last weekend (version 10).

As said: rewire never failed nor disappointed. I even learned ways to (ab)use Thor to send midi data out of Reason over audio channels!

But all of that is going to change this month.... Reason 11 has been announced and one of its key features I am very much interested in is the "rack plugin". In other words: the ability to insert the whole Reason rack (with all its instruments and crazy routing options) into any other DAW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPYbkUc205k

And as a die-hard Live fan I also think it's very cool to see how all their plugin examples start with a Live setup :)

I'm a little disappointed though that they are removing Rewire.

From what I was told was that it wont be able to host VSTs, while running in VST mode (Maschine can as well as Akai VIP)

You also wont be able to record audio or use audio tracks while in VST mode.


One opportunity that would have been nice was to really be able to take advantage of Reason's good points as a DAW such as comping, pitch editing, and clean timestretching. That way it would have been like adding all of Reasons good features to Ableton.


That said though I do see a benefit of giving other DAW users a wide range of cool REs to choose from. The Blamsoft REs are amazing commercial REs that would sound nice in an Ableton project. Or even something like Buffre, kind of like Beat Repeat but a little easier to manage and tweak.

ShelLuser
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by ShelLuser » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:23 pm

jlgrimes wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:38 pm
I'm a little disappointed though that they are removing Rewire.

From what I was told was that it wont be able to host VSTs, while running in VST mode (Maschine can as well as Akai VIP)

You also wont be able to record audio or use audio tracks while in VST mode.
True that, and a user on a Reason forum shared another disappointment: the plugin won't be able to send out midi, it'll be audio only. Which is also a shame I think because I seriously love the stuff you can do with Reason's RPG8 (and some of its other devices line the note echo). But then again... I probably know of a very good work around for that ;)

But yeah, this will be instruments (and RE's) only, but who knows what other developments they'll come up with. Though I'm also a little sad that they're going to discontinue their Europa synth in vst form as well. Not a huge issue for me but sad nonetheless. I enjoy having this in Live too.
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the Big Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Komplete 12.
Blog: SynthFan

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:22 pm

jlgrimes wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:38 pm
I'm a little disappointed though that they are removing Rewire.

From what I was told was that it wont be able to host VSTs, while running in VST mode (Maschine can as well as Akai VIP)

You also wont be able to record audio or use audio tracks while in VST mode.
You can’t load VSTs in Reason when it’s running as a ReWire slave either.

The “Reason Rack Plugin” name makes it clear it’s just the rack and not the entire Reason application. I don’t see the point in trying to use Reason’s mixer or sequencer if you’re working in another DAW, and all that leaves is the rack. Why wouldn’t you just record audio directly into your DAW?

I can’t see any reason to prefer ReWire over loading Reason’s rack directly into a DAW. Everything about ReWire is worse (with the possible exception of loading old projects).

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:30 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:23 pm
True that, and a user on a Reason forum shared another disappointment: the plugin won't be able to send out midi, it'll be audio only. Which is also a shame I think because I seriously love the stuff you can do with Reason's RPG8 (and some of its other devices line the note echo). But then again... I probably know of a very good work around for that ;)
This is another artificial complaint. It wasn’t possible to send MIDI from Reason to a host app through ReWire either (the protocol supports bidirectional MIDI, but Reason itself never supported outbound MIDI). It would certainly be nice to be able to, but it’s not something we’re losing in the transition from ReWire to Reason Rack Plugin.

It is a bit unfortunate it’s not possible to use Reason as a VST and load VSTs into the rack at the same time, as that would be the obvious way to combine Reason’s CV devices with third-party plugins. As far as I know, Ableton Live has no facility for receiving MIDI from a VST and routing it to another track or plugin anyway. Alas, VSTs that host VSTs are not very common. Maschine and Komplete Kontrol are the only ones I can think of.

It might be possible to use audio channels for CV if you really want to send control signals from Reason to the host.

doghouse
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by doghouse » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:18 pm

I missed the part about Rewire being dropped...really? That's a drag because with Rewire you can still use Reason's sequencer if you like.

The plugin is VST3 only, AU is promised by year's end for Logic/Mainstage/Garageband people. Good thing Live now has VST3 support...

The sweetest deal is that the $99 Reason Intro will include the Rack plugin. You lose 4 instruments (which ones it's not clear) and 20 (most!!) effects but if all you want to use is the plugin you can save $300.

If you're an iPhone user, get the free Reason phone app so you can download Reason Lite for your computer free to qualify for a $299 full version upgrade price, saving you $100.

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:58 am

doghouse wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:18 pm
I missed the part about Rewire being dropped...really? That's a drag because with Rewire you can still use Reason's sequencer if you like.
But why bother? Having to flip back and forth between two separate arrangements was always one of the biggest downsides of ReWire. It’s not like Reason’s bare bones sequencer has any special features that aren’t matched or beaten by whatever DAW you plug it into.

JAMM
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by JAMM » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:11 pm

I always hoped they made some reason favorite devices like redrum, scream and dr octo Rex into a vst/audio units plug-in so happy to see these back as plug-ins into ableton. Before i used ableton and reason in rewire mode but didn't,t like saving one composition in 2 different DAW,s.
Lets see if the reason rack is easy on the cpu, if there's no delay between the 2 applications and wonder if reason also can record audio from ableton?

ShelLuser
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by ShelLuser » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:55 pm

Stormchild wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:30 pm
This is another artificial complaint. It wasn’t possible to send MIDI from Reason to a host app through ReWire either (the protocol supports bidirectional MIDI, but Reason itself never supported outbound MIDI).
You're mistaken. Yes, technically it's not possible, but then you're underestimating the flexibility of Reason (Thor in specific) and ReaJS (a javascript engine within a VST plugin, part of the ReaPlugs suite).

You use Thor to route the midi data out of Reason through two audio channels. One channel for pitch, the other for velocity. Then you use a small bit of javascript code to extract said midi data and feed it back into Live.

This actually works because I've been using it in plenty of my setups. There's even a whole thread about this on both this and the Reaper forum.

(edit)

Interesting, I seemed to have blogged about it, you can find the article (with full explanations) right here. I need to clean up that blog someday and I'll probably restart the whole thing (for the 6th time, lol!).
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the Big Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Komplete 12.
Blog: SynthFan

doghouse
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by doghouse » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:01 am

Stormchild wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:58 am
Having to flip back and forth between two separate arrangements was always one of the biggest downsides of ReWire. It’s not like Reason’s bare bones sequencer has any special features that aren’t matched or beaten by whatever DAW you plug it into.
What about working up a sketch inside Reason and then wanting to import that into Live for completion. No need to transfer MIDI files, etc. when you use Rewire. It's also not clear yet whether devices like Matrix and RPG-8 will properly interlock the Run button to the host's transport. We'l have to wait until the plugin is available.

Oh another reason (sorry) to keep Rwire alive...I still use Live 9 (no VST3 support) and the AU plugin (I'm on Mac) is still vaporware.
Last edited by doghouse on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:04 am

ShelLuser wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:55 pm
Stormchild wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:30 pm
This is another artificial complaint. It wasn’t possible to send MIDI from Reason to a host app through ReWire either (the protocol supports bidirectional MIDI, but Reason itself never supported outbound MIDI).
You're mistaken. Yes, technically it's not possible, but then you're underestimating the flexibility of Reason (Thor in specific) and ReaJS (a javascript engine within a VST plugin, part of the ReaPlugs suite).
I didn't say there's no workaround for it. I only stated you cannot send MIDI from Reason to a host app through ReWire.

I guess this trick won't work anymore, but it doesn't sound like it's worth the hassle anyway. If you want to tinker with stuff like that, why not go all-in and start building things with Max? Surely it's much more powerful and reliable than passing messages via JavaScript carrier pigeons.
Last edited by Stormchild on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:14 am

doghouse wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:01 am
Stormchild wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:58 am
Having to flip back and forth between two separate arrangements was always one of the biggest downsides of ReWire. It’s not like Reason’s bare bones sequencer has any special features that aren’t matched or beaten by whatever DAW you plug it into.
What about working up a sketch inside Reason and then wanting to import that into Live for completion. No need to transfer MIDI files, etc. when you use Rewire.
That's a fair point. I often use Maschine that way, but IMO it's only worth the effort because of the dedicated controller.

But I think this only applies to anything you've already created with previous versions. Once Reason 11 ships, you might as well just start the sketch directly in your DAW. There's no benefit to sketching ideas in Reason first.

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

doghouse wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:01 am
Oh another reason (sorry) to keep Rwire alive...I still use Live 9 (no VST3 support) and the AU plugin (I'm on Mac) is still vaporware.
Technically the VST3 version isn't out yet either. They said the AU version will be released later this year. In the meantime you can either keep using Reason 10, or upgrade to Live 10. This is not a reason to keep ReWire alive.

Stormchild
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by Stormchild » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:38 am

JAMM wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:11 pm
I always hoped they made some reason favorite devices like redrum, scream and dr octo Rex into a vst/audio units plug-in so happy to see these back as plug-ins into ableton. Before i used ableton and reason in rewire mode but didn't,t like saving one composition in 2 different DAW,s.
Lets see if the reason rack is easy on the cpu, if there's no delay between the 2 applications and wonder if reason also can record audio from ableton?
Yeah, Reason has lots of great devices I've wanted to use in other apps for a long time. Having the entire rack is brilliant, because it preserves the most important feature of Reason — the connections between the devices.

The Reason Rack Plugin is not the entire Reason application; it's just the rack (hence the name). It will not have Reason's mixer or sequencer, so you will not be able to record full audio tracks. However, it looks like you can route audio into it, so it should be possible to sample audio in the various devices that support direct sampling. I haven't used it yet, but I noticed it has an "Audio In" section with main and sidechain inputs:

Image

CPU usage should be lower than running the entire Reason application connected via ReWire. I don't think "delay between applications" is a concern; it will stay in sync with your DAW like any other plugin.

ShelLuser
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Re: It;s a good time to be a Live & Reason user....

Post by ShelLuser » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:50 am

Stormchild wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:04 am
I guess this trick won't work anymore, but it doesn't sound like it's worth the hassle anyway. If you want to tinker with stuff like that, why not go all-in and start building things with Max?
The trick still works. As to using Max: the answer is reduce of overhead. The small javascript snippet (and ReaJS) were more responsive than Max back in the day, not to mention the issue of having to re-invent the wheel in Max. The thought did cross my mind of course but so far I never had time for it.

I might try again 'soonish' now that I've upgraded my entire setup last weekend (loving the 10's so far :mrgreen: ).
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the Big Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Komplete 12.
Blog: SynthFan

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