Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

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Oneiroi
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Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by Oneiroi » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:17 pm

I'm trying to create a sine mono instrument controlled by my breath controller, with the breath modulating the volume as well as the filter cutoff frequency. I'm trying to use Operator for FM modulation, but when there's any abrupt modulation of any of the volume controls (OSC Level, Sustain Level or Overall Volume knob) or filter cutoff frequency, there's quite a lot of noise/artifacts that get created, making the sound unusable. I've tried smoothing the Rise and Fall of the mappings, but it's not enough.

Is this a defect in Operator's programming or is this common to all synthesizers? I'm guessing the noise is produced by abrupt changes in the waveform at non-zero position? Isn't there a way to avoid these clicks?

[jur]
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by [jur] » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:56 pm

Did you try controlling the Volume on its own to see if there's artefacts here?
Modulating Operator filter's with M4L devices (I suppose you're using one to smooth your input?) can lead to unwanted artifacts. At least this is an issue that is filled for quite some time but I can't remember if it was fixed since then.
But generally speaking, yeah you definitely need to smooth out your incoming data with this kind of controller.
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garyboozy
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by garyboozy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:07 pm

Mapping controllers to these params (and many others in Live) has always resulted in 'zipper' noise when modulated.
Oneiroi wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:17 pm
I've tried smoothing the Rise and Fall of the mappings, but it's not enough
Rise and Fall - so you're using the Expression Control device here? You don't mention it. I wouldn't use it in this scenario as it won't help.

The best solution is to use Operator's own routing in the Global page (Time/Tone/Volume dial area) where you can select which control data is sent where, e.g: Set your breath controller to output Mod Wheel data, and set Operator's Mod Wheel > Conn. A to Filter Freq and Conn. B to Volume. Adjust amounts for each.

Oneiroi
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by Oneiroi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:32 am

Thank you both for your replies. Yes, I'm using the Expression Control device.

I've tried Remote mapping and it's much better. So the problem lies in the live.remote object inside M4L patches? Do you guys know why this is happening? I really want to control my instruments in a complex and precise way and spent a lot of time adding further options to the Expression Control device in order to do so...the MIDI options inside all of the instruments' interface are just not enough for what I want to do (I work with different CC values sent by my BBC2 breath controller). Just realizing how bad the mappings will sound with all of the instruments is a real disappointment.

How come the smoothing doesn't help much?

borg
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by borg » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:45 am

nothing really to add, was just reading, and I never had heard of this expression control device.
found this, and maybe it helps, maybe not:
https://maxforlive.com/library/device/5 ... ntrol-plus
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2015 MBP, OSX 10.12, Live 10.1 64bit, RME Fireface 800

garyboozy
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by garyboozy » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:10 am

Oneiroi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:32 am
So the problem lies in the live.remote object inside M4L patches?
No, this is an issue with many of Live's older devices not managing mapped modulations very well, including Operator.
If you try the same Expression Control mappings with the new Wavetable device, there's no problem.

Oneiroi
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by Oneiroi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:15 pm

borg wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:45 am
nothing really to add, was just reading, and I never had heard of this expression control device.
found this, and maybe it helps, maybe not:
https://maxforlive.com/library/device/5 ... ntrol-plus
Yes, I'm the one who uploaded it! ^_^
garyboozy wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:10 am
Oneiroi wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:32 am
So the problem lies in the live.remote object inside M4L patches?
No, this is an issue with many of Live's older devices not managing mapped modulations very well, including Operator.
If you try the same Expression Control mappings with the new Wavetable device, there's no problem.
I see. That's too bad. I guess I'll have to work with devices that respond better to mapped modulation, like you said. I feel like it wouldn't be too much work to fix that problem with the older ones though. I'll send a feature request, but of course you never know how far that goes.

[jur]
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by [jur] » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:31 pm

Send a bug report to support@ableton.com instead :wink:
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Oneiroi
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by Oneiroi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:37 pm

[jur] wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:31 pm
Send a bug report to support@ableton.com instead :wink:
Thanks for the tip! :wink:

Oneiroi
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Re: Modulating Operator Filter or Volume Creates Artifacts

Post by Oneiroi » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:38 pm

Just wanted to mention that I've just discovered Wavetable and I can't believe I haven't explored it earlier. It has everything I'm looking for : deep modulation and control capabilities and smooth modulation (none those nasty jean zipper sounds).

I guess it didn't really appeal to me judging by how all these presets sounded like...all very noisy and full of artifacts, which I guess is one of its main characteristics. The interface seemed pretty daunting too, but after a few hours of exploration, I realized just how profound its possibilities are and again, very useful for anyone wanting deeper control of the sounds (ie : breath/wind controllers or any sophisticated controllers).

2 thumbs up :!:

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