Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

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Bad Mind
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Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by Bad Mind » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:02 am

I just put together a track in Session view where I am doing some Transpose automation to a hihat. After I create everything in Session and then record it to the Arrangement, all the automation from the recorded Clip is gone, but if I go into Session and look at the Clip itself, the programmed automation is still there.

Is there something I'm missing? Or could it be a bug, etc.? I took a look in the manual and couldn't find anything about it. I really see no reason why my automation should be thrown away after recording into an arrangement, it seems kind of detrimental to the work flow. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Bad Mind
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by Bad Mind » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:40 am

ShelLuser wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:12 am
It's not a bug but a feature. The main reason this is happening is because both the session & arrangement views use automation in a completely different way. For example: in the session view the automation is set up per-clip. But the arrangement doesn't know this concept, in there any automation is stored on the track (and it can even use its own automation lanes).

So some things can't be copied over "just like that", it's simply not the way it works.
Thanks for the response! I guess I'll just completely ignore that part of it then lol

siliconarc
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by siliconarc » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:17 am

dunno what peter is on about, but it works fine here. recording a session clip into arrange keeps its automation intact, as does dragging the clip from session to arrange (grab session clip, press tab, drop on arrange – won't work if you have the automation lock switch enabled though)
Last edited by siliconarc on Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bad Mind
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by Bad Mind » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:26 am

garyboozy wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:17 am
dunno what peter is on about, but it works fine here. recording a session clip into arrange keeps its automation intact, as does dragging the clip from session to arrange (won't work if you have the automation lock wsitch enabled though)
I'll have to look out for that switch and do a little test, that's probably it. Thanks for the insight!

Bad Mind
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by Bad Mind » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:52 am

Figured it out, had to turn off Automation Arm before recording, working like a charm now! Thanks again guys!

jestermgee
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by jestermgee » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:14 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:12 am
It's not a bug but a feature. The main reason this is happening is because both the session & arrangement views use automation in a completely different way. For example: in the session view the automation is set up per-clip. But the arrangement doesn't know this concept, in there any automation is stored on the track (and it can even use its own automation lanes).

So some things can't be copied over "just like that", it's simply not the way it works.
Yeah as pointed out, it is simply the way it works, just be sure you know how it works before trying to convince a new user they have it wrong themselves.

There is clip and arrangement automation that is certainly the case but since arrangement hosts clips, it also inherits all the automation from that clip which remains within the clip. They don't use automation "in different ways" there are just some parameters that reside with clips rather than "globally" in arrangement. The most common examples would be pitch/modulation/channel pressure that is recorded with the clip and makes more sense to reside with the clips since it is typically applied while playing and should be stored with the "performance". Global automation is more for post processing such as mixer and effects adjustments.

As was discovered there are ways to disable the recording of this automation to arrangement when doing it "live".

siliconarc
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by siliconarc » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:34 pm

op solved his problem so your belated, self-righteous bible-bashing is surplus to requirements. good day sir :x

Bad Mind
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by Bad Mind » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:16 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Sorry for a delayed response, I'm finally at my studio again and thus can address this comedy thread. I cannot believe the absurdity here, you guys are completely mixing up your facts and worse: giving out false misguided information to someone who is merely learning all this.
garyboozy wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:17 am
dunno what peter is on about, but it works fine here.
No it doesn't, as I shall explain in a moment.
jestermgee wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:14 pm
Yeah as pointed out, it is simply the way it works, just be sure you know how it works before trying to convince a new user they have it wrong themselves.
Right back at you, unlike yourself I actually tried before posting and I actually knew what I'm talking about. It is not me but you guys who are driven by false assumptions that you completely fail to spot the obvious. Worse yet: instead of educating the OP about his honest mistake you somehow assume that I got things wrong.

Please don't insult my intelligence like this and actually read up in the manual next time? Thanks.
Bad Mind wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:52 am
Figured it out, had to turn off Automation Arm before recording, working like a charm now! Thanks again guys!
No it doesn't work. Sure, something works for you, I'm not arguing that, but what you're experiencing is not what you asked about in this thread (the title).

Now, instead of simply telling you that you made a mistake I can actually back up my argument with facts and explain myself, unlike these two other gentlemen.

First things first....

What are we talking about here? In the end this thread is about Envelopes, in specific clip envelopes; you want to copy a clip with extra information into the arrangement. So far, so good. Now, the thing is that there are 2 types of envelopes within Ableton Live:
  • Automation; this is shown in red and it's used to control device parameters in an absolute way. If you change a value then the controlled parameter also changes in the same way. In other words: setting pitch automation to 4 will set the pitch control to 4 as well.
  • Modulation; this is shown in blue and it's also used to control device parameters but in a relative way. This is not called automation but modulation because of the relative nature. Meaning: when you change values using modulation you don't set the parameter to a specific value, instead you adjust within a specific range.
So here's the thing.... Only session view clips can contain both envelope types: both automation and modulation. Once again: these are not the same thing as you guys are assuming and/or glossing over! (being new the OP made a honest mistake, happens to anyone new to Live, but I most certainly expected better from self-proclaimed professionals).

Arrangement (view) clips can only contain modulation envelopes, they can not contain automation because that information resides in the tracks automation lane, as I explained above.

And for the "experts" who didn't believe me: check the color of the information you're working with and/or test this out for yourself and most of all: please re-read chapter 20 of the Live manual again... section 20.3 in specific, but I'll quote:
Both automation and modulation clip envelopes are available for clips in the Session View. A toggle beneath the envelope choosers allows you to switch between editing automation and modulation clip envelopes for the selected parameter. In the Arrangement, clips only have modulation envelopes, while the automation envelopes reside on the track’s automation lane (see 19.5).
So once more: you cannot copy the clip automation from the session view into the arrangement, only modulation type envelopes. But that's not what the OP asked about in this thread, he clearly mentioned clip automation.

And a belated happy new year!
It's the red Automation. I'm adjusting the Transpose parameter on a sound in a Drum Rack on a Clip in Session View. With the little Automation Arm button in the Arrangement View turned off before hitting Record, it retains that edit when I Record into the Arrangement View. Having it on beforehand, I think Live was expecting some movements to be made to be recorded into the Automation Lane and was just overwriting anything already in the Clip with the static default value. In Arrangement, no it doesn't show the Automation (until you unveil it yourself), and when selecting Only Show Adjusted Envelopes from the recorded Clip, it goes straight to that Transpose parameter but only shows an unedited, blue Modulation lane, but the red Automation that was edited in the Clip from Session View is still active and plays back as programmed.

If I goto the Device, and select the sound I'm automating and view the Transpose parameter (inside the Control tab), it will have the little red box on it (showing there is Automation active) then right-click and select Show Automation In New Lane, it does display it in the Arrangement just as I programmed it.

Yes, I understand what you are explaining. Automation resides in it's own lane in Arrangement View verses residing in the actual Clip itself (as Modulation can).

So it was just a recording thing, not so much as trying to Copy and Paste from Session Clip to Arrangement.

I hope that by the both of us going into detail, it helps explain the situation and solution to someone else who may stumble into this thread asking the same question! It's easy to overlook things in Live with all it's tiny buttons lol... The help is much appreciated, and happy new year to you guys, too!

siliconarc
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by siliconarc » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:33 pm

No probs!

siliconarc
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by siliconarc » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:05 pm

mad lad

jestermgee
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Re: Clip Automation not carrying over when recording clips to Arrangement

Post by jestermgee » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:54 pm

ShelLuser wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:12 am
It's not a bug but a feature. The main reason this is happening is because both the session & arrangement views use automation in a completely different way. For example: in the session view the automation is set up per-clip. But the arrangement doesn't know this concept, in there any automation is stored on the track (and it can even use its own automation lanes).

So some things can't be copied over "just like that", it's simply not the way it works.
I actually tried before posting and I actually knew what I'm talking about. It is not me but you guys who are driven by false assumptions that you completely fail to spot the obvious. Worse yet: instead of educating the OP about his honest mistake you somehow assume that I got things wrong.
But if you did try it then why give the impression in your post that:
So some things can't be copied over "just like that"
Both myself and another experienced user both read into your answer in the same way, that you cannot copy over automation because it all "works differently" and this is completely wrong, all Envelopes be it automation or modulation are copied over to arrangement and I feel you were focusing on the wrong part of the problem and your answer was not making things "obvious" to anyone and had the user almost give up on it at that point.

Let's not split hairs about the difference between "Automation" and "Modulation" as that isn't the question the OP asked at all, that's a different topic. The OP simply wanted to know why the movements they recorded in Session do not carry over to arrangement.

As you eventually explained In Clip View, both control types (Modulation+MIDI / Automation) are stored in the clip. In Arrangement it will get separated automatically. I actually got that part wrong when I said it stays with the clip, Automation data is carried over just fine and will be split out of the clip and placed into the arrangement tracks automation lane making it global. Doesn't matter if you record or just drag a clip, ANY automation, modulation or any other recorded movements you made in Session will all be carried over and available in Arrangement.

Modulation/Midi Control Data (blue envelopes) will always stay with the clip but the Automation data (red envelope) is split out into the automation lanes for the track. This can be confusing for a new user because if they click on their clip in Arrangement view they will no longer see automation data listed in the clips envelope section like in Session and (I suspect this was the OP's issue) if they are not showing automation lanes in arrangement then it appears there is no automation.

If my post to your question was "insulting" then apologizes, but the answer you gave was not the complete answer as it appeared to suggest that automation you record in Session mode cannot be "copied over just like that" to arrangement where it of course is copied over, just split into the dedicated automation lane in arrangement. I think you were possibly trying to make this point but kind of confused the situation more.

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