New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
richg32
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:22 pm

I have bought the RME fireface uc, and I am having issues with latency when running ableton live and a drum machine. I have never had an issue with my previous native instruments interface, which seems strange.
Ableton has a driver error compensation which I used to use to fix timing. Now with my new interface this feature is not working for some reason.
I am currently running a buffer size of 128 samples in ableton. With ableton as the master clock.
Yet when i press play ableton and my hardware are out of synch.
I used to be Able to compensate for latency with my old interface pretty quickly, now the setting in ableton does nothing.
I just can’t get the drum machine in perfect synth with ableton , Can you offer advice on how I can deal with this issue?

My new interface has its own total mix program so not sure if this is an issue?

Any help would be much appreciated

Thanks

TLW
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by TLW » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:30 pm

Which operating system?
Which drum machine and how is it connected?
Which driver are you using?
Firewire or USB interface connection?
Live 10 Suite, 2020 27" iMac, 3.6 GHz i9, MacOS Catalina, RME UFX, assorted synths, guitars and stuff.

richg32
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:42 pm

So it’s an rme fired ace uc USB interface . It has its own total mix operating system which I don’t really use.it also had its own drivers which I had to download.
I want to do all my Mixing in ableton not the total mix software.
I have ableton running master clock.
An analog rytm receiving clock via midi. The audio then goes into the interface.
I route it to an ableton Chanel via external instrument plug in.

I find the drum machine is out of synch conspired to all my ableton stuff.

TLW
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by TLW » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:21 am

Totalmix is not for mixing a DAW project. It is for setting input and output channels to mono or stereo, level setting the gain for inputs to the DAW and for setting up monitor mixes. It is very useful and using it is pretty much essential if you want the best out of an RME interface.

Having said that which operating system are you using, Mac or Windows? And which version of the operating system?
Are you you using RME’s drivers? Core Audio or ASIO?
Is the interface connected to the computer by USB or firewire (firewire can be problematic on a Windows PC)?

Without knowing that it is very difficult to suggest anything other than you contact RME support (who are usually helpful).

The “external instrument” plugin can introduce latency sometimes and has ways to correct for that, though personally I use my RME UFX without using the external instrument plug - just a MIDI track and an audio track for each of the several hardware synths I regularly use.

And how much out of sync are we talking about? A few milliseconds or something longer, and if longer how much longer? How exactly is the drum machine connected? 5 pin DIN MIDI cable or USB? And if DIN MIDI is that through the RME or something else? I used a MachineDrum for years without timing errors of more than a few milliseconds (all MIDI gear takes time to convert the MIDI signals to audio, and to complicate things, exactly how long varies from device to device).
Live 10 Suite, 2020 27" iMac, 3.6 GHz i9, MacOS Catalina, RME UFX, assorted synths, guitars and stuff.

Angstrom
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by Angstrom » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:12 am

A few setup tips, probably out of order.

first: do the latency setup thing on Ableton, make sure everything is OK . (basically you route out to an in, which can be done in totalmix if you are OK with loopback function). the live lesson guides you through it.

Next set the external drum machine to play off a midi trigger. Make a midi track in Live, put an external instrument on there. play a kick and hat on alternate 4s. record that into a resampled channel / clip. stop Live and look at that recording . is the recording on beat? If so your latency is OK. if not then adjust the hardware offset in the Ext.Inst device.

next, set output clock from Live to the drum machine.
start Live, make sure the drum machine auto-starts. move the Live tempo up and down and make sure the drum machine tracks it.
Now play a simple beat on the drum machine and record it into the resample channel.

take a look at that. If the previous recording was onbeat, and this one (clocked) is off the beat you need to offset the clock.

Open Prefs pane ->midi and controllers or whatever it's called. Scroll down to wherever the OUT is which your drum machine is on. EG: "Analog Rytm" unfold it, there's a clock offset.

While this pane is open you can actually play the set, and trigger the recording of a clip. Play the set and start recording into the resample clip. You should be able to see the offset of the beat in that clip.
tweak the clock offset parameter until the audio is on the beat marker.

Your beats are now in time for the moment.

That is ... until something changes.
Add a plugin, look at your dog incorrectly, the atoms in your room sum to a prime number, coronal mass ejection event on this day in 1743

congratulations you have opened the doors of Ableton Latency Hell, so take a seat, you will be here for a long time. But that time it will change unexpectedly and you will say "what the fuck" a lot.

richg32
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:02 am

Hi
The drum machine connected via midi din through the rme interface
The interface is usb.
The synch is only out by a few milliseconds.
The main problem I am having is that the ableton compensation will not work.
When I adjusted it nothing happens.
With my previous audio interface I could adjust the compensation when ever I needed too.
With the rme it’s does not change anything when I adjust compensation
Surly I must be missing something here?
I know RME are a popular interface so they must work well when used properly with ableton ?

scheffkoch
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by scheffkoch » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:48 am

...do you monitor the analog rytm via ableton?...
macbook pro m1pro, macos monterey, rme multiface via sonnet echo express se I, push 2, faderfox mx12, xone:k2

richg32
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:44 am

Yes that is what I want to do

scheffkoch
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by scheffkoch » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:24 pm

...i'm asking because a lot of people have the outboard equipment connected to the speakers and use direct monitoring but that would result in latency problems when you also have ableton tracks playing...
macbook pro m1pro, macos monterey, rme multiface via sonnet echo express se I, push 2, faderfox mx12, xone:k2

Angstrom
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by Angstrom » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:34 pm

I have an RME. I used external gear synced. It works fine as long as everything stays the same. I gave you the solution. You can either read it ir not. The choice is yours.

richg32
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:31 pm

The diver error compensation is not working so I cannot compensate.
So unfortunately you did not help

richg32
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:34 pm

Thanks for the help and advice

I found out my issue was that I did not have the total mix and ableton routed correctly. I was monitoring through ableton instead of the total mix software.

I can monitor through ableton but only if total mix software is in DAW mode.

TLW
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by TLW » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:51 pm

My main use of Totalmix is configuring channels, input and output routings and gain settings; I don’t use it in “DAW mode”.

I usually monitor through Live, especially for more ambient projects because I use delays and reverbs a lot and need to hear what they’re doing as I work. I could use hardware delays but since Live gives me as many delay “processors” as as I want to use monitoring through Live is a lot cheaper than buying lots of delay units. It also means I can sync the delay times more easily than I can with pedals, tape delays or non-MIDI clockable rack effects.

As I usually use several hardware synths clips tend to be a few milliseconds off perfect timing due to the delays inherent in MIDI processing - the delays come from the synths themselves, and though it’s not usually noticeable MIDI, like USB, is a serial protocol so only one instruction can be sent to a synth at a time. Which means MIDI chords are always very slightly arpeggiated when hardware synths are used. Software synths can be better in that respect so long as the DAW sorts out the tiny timing differences, but I prefer my hardware to most software and I don’t mind nudging the audio in clips backwards or forwards a few milliseconds or quantising it if necessary to get everything aligned. The slight timing inaccuracy isn’t even noticeable most of the time as it’s usually well within the timing drift humans tend to have, so it can even make music seem more “human”.

A single setting to correct MIDI timing wouldn’t work for me because the synths take different amounts of time to process MIDI and at least one doesn’t take a fixed amount of time, it varies depending on the patch and whether it’s being played monophonically or polyphonically. RME’s drivers and hardware mean I can work with very low latency which helps keep different tracks lined up and I can’t accurately play guitar or bass with a latency of more than around 15 milliseconds plus the 5 or 6 added by how long it takes audio to leave the monitors and reach my ears (sound travels about 1 foot per millisecond in air and that adds to perceived latency).

It might be worth adding that most computers, be they PCs or Macs, and most DAWs don’t have spot-on MIDI clocking in the first place so tempos do wander a little, just to make things more complicated. This is the price of using DAWs, but their advantages over a roomful of processors, a big mixer, tape decks and hardware sequencing by control voltages usually makes it worth tolerating.
Live 10 Suite, 2020 27" iMac, 3.6 GHz i9, MacOS Catalina, RME UFX, assorted synths, guitars and stuff.

scheffkoch
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Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by scheffkoch » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 am

"I can monitor through ableton but only if total mix software is in DAW mode"

...you could configure it within totalmix though...i just learned about daw mode and before i did the routing within totalmix...good to hear that you've found the solution!
macbook pro m1pro, macos monterey, rme multiface via sonnet echo express se I, push 2, faderfox mx12, xone:k2

richg32
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: New audio interface latency issues. Fire face UC

Post by richg32 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:16 pm

Hi
I would be Interested to learn how to configure total mix to allow monitoring in ableton?
Could you offer advice on you how to work this?

Thanks

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