Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

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kimyoungs
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Mon May 18, 2020 12:22 am

Sorry for my poor english. I can't contact to technical support because I use 90 day trial.
Recently I consider change my DAW from cubase to ableton, So I downloaded trial of live suite.

1. Using drum rack, I layered 2 Kick samples on 1 cell. (using Instrument Rack)
2. each samples set to 1-Shot mode (monophonic)
3. If I sequence a midi note faster than sample length, sound changes. (maybe phase issue)

tried to test on multiple simpler tracks / turned off SNAP settings on eash samples / tried to unchecked 'Create Fades on Clip Edges' option in preference, but nothing solved.

Is this just a bug from live? live is very interesting DAW for me, but If this problem won't solved, I don't want to use it.

---added---

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1afda2X ... sp=sharing
This is project file that showing this problem. and solution included.
Last edited by kimyoungs on Wed May 20, 2020 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

[jur]
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by [jur] » Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 am

Yep, possibly a phase issue, so the best fix is to change one of your sound to get a better phase alignement... which is of course way more sensible with low frequencies.
BUT, you've mentionned fast repeating notes, so maybe there's a phase issue inside a single Simpler. You need to make sure each Simpler has only 1 voice and retrigger is on.
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kimyoungs
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Mon May 18, 2020 1:45 am

[jur] wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 am
Yep, possibly a phase issue, so the best fix is to change one of your sound to get a better phase alignement... which is of course way more sensible with low frequencies.
BUT, you've mentionned fast repeating notes, so maybe there's a phase issue inside a single Simpler. You need to make sure each Simpler has only 1 voice and retrigger is on.
Thanks for reply.

I tried with another sample, but still happened.
I checked drum rack and simpler settings. 1 voice, and retrigger. etc.
This is not an issue between kick samples. I tried with another DAW, but it's OK.
This is an issue inside the single simpler, sampler, drum racks. like you've mentioned about.

kimyoungs
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Mon May 18, 2020 1:48 am

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=221427

I found same topic on this forum. and nobody can help him.

[jur]
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by [jur] » Mon May 18, 2020 10:41 am

If you load these 2 kicks into 2 audio tracks and reproduce the same beat/pattern, do you still have this phase issue?
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kimyoungs
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Mon May 18, 2020 11:38 am

[jur] wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:41 am
If you load these 2 kicks into 2 audio tracks and reproduce the same beat/pattern, do you still have this phase issue?
2 individual audio tracks doesn't make problem but 2 individual simpler (or sampler) does.

I think live's most interesting tool is sampler so I don't want to work with waveform. (also making drum beat with waveform in live is too uncomfortable)

When I render first layered kick from drumrack, reproduce same pattern and phase inverted, I can hear huge difference.

kimyoungs
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Mon May 18, 2020 11:40 am

kimyoungs wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:38 am
[jur] wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 10:41 am
If you load these 2 kicks into 2 audio tracks and reproduce the same beat/pattern, do you still have this phase issue?
2 individual audio tracks doesn't make problem but 2 individual simpler (or sampler) does.

I think live's most interesting tool is sampler so I don't want to work with waveform. (also making drum beat with waveform in live is too uncomfortable)

When I render first layered kick from drumrack, reproduce same pattern and phase inverted, I can hear huge difference.
I can make video about this issue if ableton developer can know this :cry:

pottering
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by pottering » Mon May 18, 2020 11:36 pm

Simpler and Sampler have multiple envelopes, you should check those.

kimyoungs
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Tue May 19, 2020 3:16 pm

pottering wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:36 pm
Simpler and Sampler have multiple envelopes, you should check those.
Thanks for reply.
but I can't find a information about 'multiple envelopes' funtion.

Is there any other keyword that I try?

chimp_spanner
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by chimp_spanner » Wed May 20, 2020 8:36 am

kimyoungs wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:22 am
Sorry for my poor english. I can't contact to technical support because I use 90 day trial.
Recently I consider change my DAW from cubase to ableton, So I downloaded trial of live suite.

1. Using drum rack, I layered 2 Kick samples on 1 cell. (using Instrument Rack)
2. each samples set to 1-Shot mode (monophonic)
3. If I sequence a midi note faster than sample length, sound changes. (maybe phase issue)

tried to test on multiple simpler tracks / turned off SNAP settings on eash samples / tried to unchecked 'Create Fades on Clip Edges' option in preference, but nothing solved.

Is this just a bug from live? live is very interesting DAW for me, but If this problem won't solved, I don't want to use it.
Is there a way you can share a project to show the problem? I'm trying to replicate it here but I'm not sure I understand fully what problem you're having. As far as my ears can tell it's working okay. I've used drum samplers before where every time the layered drum plays it will sound a bit different because it's not triggering them with sample accuracy. But as far as I can tell here it's identical every time. But yeah if I could take a look at your setup that might help!

kimyoungs
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Wed May 20, 2020 9:36 am

chimp_spanner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:36 am
kimyoungs wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:22 am
Sorry for my poor english. I can't contact to technical support because I use 90 day trial.
Recently I consider change my DAW from cubase to ableton, So I downloaded trial of live suite.

1. Using drum rack, I layered 2 Kick samples on 1 cell. (using Instrument Rack)
2. each samples set to 1-Shot mode (monophonic)
3. If I sequence a midi note faster than sample length, sound changes. (maybe phase issue)

tried to test on multiple simpler tracks / turned off SNAP settings on eash samples / tried to unchecked 'Create Fades on Clip Edges' option in preference, but nothing solved.

Is this just a bug from live? live is very interesting DAW for me, but If this problem won't solved, I don't want to use it.
Is there a way you can share a project to show the problem? I'm trying to replicate it here but I'm not sure I understand fully what problem you're having. As far as my ears can tell it's working okay. I've used drum samplers before where every time the layered drum plays it will sound a bit different because it's not triggering them with sample accuracy. But as far as I can tell here it's identical every time. But yeah if I could take a look at your setup that might help!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1afda2X ... sp=sharing
This is the project file that show problem. and my solution included.

kimyoungs
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Wed May 20, 2020 9:42 am

[Solution]

Don't load Instrument rack on DrumRack. load Sampler and using 'Zone' function to layer samples.

Maybe Sampler doesn't have oneshot option, so I using long release time.
Sampler didn't change sound but It has 1ms delay when retrigger samples at release time.

Using enough voice number and turn off Retrigger option don't make delay and work perfectly.

garyboozy
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Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by garyboozy » Wed May 20, 2020 12:31 pm

Hi Kim, good on you for persevering with this! I just took a look at your example project and can see the issue exactly as you described.
You should be able to report this here: https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

kimyoungs
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: Critical Sound Issue when Layering Samples with Drum Rack

Post by kimyoungs » Wed May 20, 2020 6:30 pm

garyboozy wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:31 pm
Hi Kim, good on you for persevering with this! I just took a look at your example project and can see the issue exactly as you described.
You should be able to report this here: https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
Thanks for reply.
I use trial version of live so I can't send request to ableton.
after purchase, I send a request later.

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