EQ Eight's Frequencies Wrong??

[B.Ridgey]

Hi there, first post here...

I EQ a certain way according to what notes/frequency the instrument is actually playing. However, the frequencies in Ableton's EQ Eight seem to be...wrong? For example, Middle C (C4) is universally 261.63 Hz but when you open up EQ Eight, and hover over the grid (you have to open up the window to be larger) and go to 261 Hz, it says it's C3 (C3 is supposed to be 130.81 Hz). Are they trying to mess with the fundamental frequencies of the notes? Every note is a set frequency, didn't really think it was up to interpretation..? Not sure why Ableton is doubling the frequencies of notes? It's throwing off my albeit nerdy way of EQ-ing. Thanks in advance for your help!

[Tone Deft]

you are correct!

I just posted this in another thread, too lazy to re-post. anyway
viewtopic.php?p=1779415#p1779415

[B.Ridgey]

Thanks for responding so quickly, appreciate it! I guess the labelling of C4 vs C3 vs C5 is arbitrary then? I'll just stick to looking at the frequencies when I EQ instead of looking at what they label. For instance, if I play a D2 on the piano (on my piano that's 73 Hz) and I want to boost that note, I would boost 73 Hz on EQ Eight, right? I wouldn't boost 146 Hz just because Ableton says that's their D2? Right?

[[jur]]

I guess the labelling of C4 vs C3 vs C5 is arbitrary then?

Yeah

[B.Ridgey]

In case anyone is interested. I guess MIDI labels middle C as C3. So if you're trying to match a melody line from a real piano, thinking you're playing say C4, E4, G4, (middle C on a piano) and expecting to get the same octave in MIDI, you'd have to make sure the notes on your MIDI keyboard are actually C3, E3, G3...then it will be in the same octave as the actual real life piano.

[ecuk]

In case anyone is interested. I guess MIDI labels middle C as C3.

For the record, MIDI does not label anything at all as C3. The MIDI specs (plural) say only that note 60 is ‘middle C’.

The specs say nothing whatsoever about pitch/octave notation, nor even really what ‘middle C’ is—although there is an example in the MIDI Tuning spec which uses 261.6256 Hz, which is (approximately) what you get if you are using twelve-tone equal temperament (12-TET) with A at 440 Hz. I say ‘approximately’ because it is, of course, and with all due apologies to good ol’ Pythagoras (and Hippasus), an irrational number.

Except for that one example, however, the MIDI specs are not dogmatic and only ever to refer to ‘middle C’, not to arbitrary labels such as C3 or C4 or C5 (for each of which a reasonable argument can be—and over the years has been—made).

[Richie Witch]

In case anyone is interested. I guess MIDI labels middle C as C3. So if you're trying to match a melody line from a real piano, thinking you're playing say C4, E4, G4, (middle C on a piano) and expecting to get the same octave in MIDI, you'd have to make sure the notes on your MIDI keyboard are actually C3, E3, G3...then it will be in the same octave as the actual real life piano.

Well... sometimes... If you're using a sampled Rhodes Piano Bass, C3 could be a completely different octave than it would be on other instruments. In fact, depending on the tonal range of the instrument, particularly when it comes to sampled instruments (e.g. Kontakt), you never really know where "C3" will be in the scale until you play it and listen.

Realistically, you need to listen to the notes and figure out what octave you're working with for each of your instruments. If you really need C3 to be middle C, try using Live's Pitch MIDI effect with the instrument. At the end of the day, we still have to use our ears.

[Tone Deft]

I don't find anything regarding midi 2.0 specifically clarifying this confusion. only...

from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

The GM standard eliminates variation in note mapping. Some manufacturers had disagreed over what note number should represent middle C, but GM specifies that note number 69 plays A440, which in turn fixes middle C as note number 60.

just another footnote in music making. computershit moves middle C around. even if it's standardized it's bastardized.

[ecuk]

Correct, the MIDI 2.0 spec simply points to the MIDI 1.0 spec for the meaning of, for example, pitch in Note On/Off messages. So no (new) help there.

As for the Wikipedia entry, it is correct in what it says, but what it says only applies to General MIDI pitched instruments. I somehow doubt that very many Live users are using GM instruments; to do seems rather antithetical to the use of a DAW such as Live.

In any case, the MIDI specs themselves only ever mention ‘middle C’ and A440, the latter only in reference to GM and the defaults for Master Coarse/Fine Tuning SysEx messages which can be used to set the tuning of external MIDI devices.

Core MIDI is truly agnostic about notational (and microtonal) issues such as whether 262.6255653….Hz should be called C3 or C4 or C5. The specs only say that, ceteris paribus, note 60 is ‘middle C’.

[TLW]

The origin of the C3 vs C4 vs Cwhatever issue goes right back to the earliest days of MIDI.

Having agreed on a huge amount of stuff - including that “middle C” is note 60, which makes sense on a system that can play 128 notes in total, 60 being almost the half-way point much like on a full-size piano keyboard, Yamaha and Roland, for whatever reason, decided to use different octave numbers. I forget which is which, but one went for note 60 = C3 and the other for note 60 = C4.

In other words this confusion has existed fro as long as MIDI has. And is not helped by a few other companies deciding to ignore both the Yamaha and Roland octave numbers and use their own scheme instead.

And in a world of tunable synths where the base oscillator frequency can be shifted by an octave or more or organs with “foot” voicings if you need to be certain it is playing what pianos regard as middle C the only way is to check both the MIDI note number and the frequency the synth is actually playing.

It’s a nuisance, especially for people writing or working from scores or using other people’s MIDI sequences but it is what it is and any attempt to fix it now wouldn’t resolve the problem for legacy synths and software.

[Tone Deft]

General MIDI
vs.
Core MIDI

Core midi is Apple. I was on board with your argument until you used a computer company as a point of knowledge. I can't go for that.

[ecuk]

Sorry, by Core MIDI I meant the core MIDI specifications from the MMA, less the many supplements to the basic spec needed for specific (and often esoteric) purposes. Nothing whatsoever to do with Apple.

Also, I mistyped earlier… The traditional value for middle C is about 261.6 Hz, not 262.6

[ecuk]

Yamaha and Roland, for whatever reason, decided to use different octave numbers. I forget which is which, but one went for note 60 = C3 and the other for note 60 = C4.

Don’t quote me on this, but I believe it was Yamaha who went with C3. The DX7, which was one of the early MIDI synths (I bought one a few months after they came out, my first synth!), had only 61 keys, the lowest of which was C and happened to transmit MIDI note 36, two octaves below the (roughly) middle of the keyboard. Yamaha somewhat naturally called this lowest key C1 because it was the first C on the keyboard. This in turn meant that middle C (note 60) ended up as C3. This idea was subsequently followed by others, not the least of whom for our purposes were the developers of Max, which was of course the early prototype language for what became Live.

C4 of course makes sense on an 88-key piano keyboard if you number the first C key as C1 (and the lowest key therefore becomes A0 because, as we all know, the musical alphabet begins with C, not A).

Finally, C5 makes sense if you are starting with the full 128-key MIDI ‘keyboard’ and call the first C (note 0) C0. Fortunately, as best I can tell, no one of significance ever decided to call the first C of the MIDI ‘keyboard’ C1. Had they done so, middle C would be C6

[TLW]

Yamaha and Roland, for whatever reason, decided to use different octave numbers. I forget which is which, but one went for note 60 = C3 and the other for note 60 = C4.

Don’t quote me on this, but I believe it was Yamaha who went with C3. The DX7, which was one of the early MIDI synths (I bought one a few months after they came out, my first synth!), had only 61 keys, the lowest of which was C and happened to transmit MIDI note 36, two octaves below the (roughly) middle of the keyboard.

You could very well be right. I’ve never owned a DX-7 but I know a few people who bought them in the 80s and they’re all over recordings of the 80s and 90s. of course.