Ableton's metronome is just broken.

[ezbie]

I am trying Ableton Live for the 3rd day and I just found the metronome here is really messed up.

Anyone who's wrapped their head around how time signatures work knows that the first (or top) number is the amount of beats in a measure, the second is the value of the figure that picks the beat. So e.g, at a given tempo 4/2, 4/4 and 4/8 all sound the same, except that in written form you'll see the figure for a beat will differ. It also doesn't affect tempo at all.

Now, Ableton gets it completely wrong. At say, 120BPM, 4/4 sounds correct. But if I set time signature to 4/8 the tempo doubles and now I have 240BPM. What the!?

Similarly, 2/2 and 2/4 sound exactly the same in reality, yet if you set the project to 120BPM and time signature to 2/2, you'll effectively get tempo slowed down to 60BPM. That's not how music works. Regardless of the time signature, changing it should not alter the tempo.

This bug was mentioned here in 2009 and I really don't want to believe there's an 11 years old bug there.

Now, don't get me wrong I don't meant to be ranting or anything, I'm loving Ableton, it's really easy to use and absurdly quick to put a sound together in it using the session view. Just saying this metronome is a 100% broken.

[pottering]

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/recor ... e-settings

You can access the Metronome Settings menu via the pull-down switch next to the metronome, or by opening the context menu via right-click(PC) / CTRL-click(Mac) on the metronome itself.

The menu lets you set the count-in length for recording (see 16.6). You can also change the sound of the metronome’s tick.

The Rhythm settings allow you to set the beat division at which the metronome ticks. With the default “Auto” setting, the tick interval follows the time signature’s denominator. Beat divisions that do not fit into one bar of the current time signature will appear disabled.

If the currently selected beat division no longer fits in a bar due to a time signature change, the metronome’s tick will revert to the “Auto” setting. However, if the time signature is changed in a way that makes the beat division fit in a bar again, the tick will revert to following the selected beat division.

[yur2die4]

It’s probably easier to just make some reference rhythm audio clips. It’ll give you a much clearer idea of where emphasis should be than trying to deal with the metronome. Plus feel a lot more natural.

Of course, you’d still have to at least have the time signature and tempo thing sorted out... which from your description does sound kind of insane haha

[ezbie]

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/recor ... e-settings

You can access the Metronome Settings menu via the pull-down switch next to the metronome, or by opening the context menu via right-click(PC) / CTRL-click(Mac) on the metronome itself.

The menu lets you set the count-in length for recording (see 16.6). You can also change the sound of the metronome’s tick.

The Rhythm settings allow you to set the beat division at which the metronome ticks. With the default “Auto” setting, the tick interval follows the time signature’s denominator. Beat divisions that do not fit into one bar of the current time signature will appear disabled.

If the currently selected beat division no longer fits in a bar due to a time signature change, the metronome’s tick will revert to the “Auto” setting. However, if the time signature is changed in a way that makes the beat division fit in a bar again, the tick will revert to following the selected beat division.

As much as I'm glad to see this in not a bug and is documented, I'm impressed to see Ableton made something that weird the default behaviour of the DAW.

For me, I'll keep thinking this is downright wrong. If you studied music or even played in a band you'll know no one will be able to play a 120BPM song if the rhythm sounds the double or half of that.

I'd suggest you scrap that right away, or at least default to 'musical' behaviour, not this nonsense.

[Calagan]

Hi Ezble

Sorry to contradict you, but 4/4 and 4/8 doesn't sound the same at all and Live reacts correctly.

First digit is the number of beats in a bar, second digit is the value of the beat.
So 4/8 is 2 times quicker than 4/4.

Why would you think 4/4 and 4/8 sound the same ? What would be the purpose ?

This is what I learn in music theory, and you can just check it on wikipedia if you don't believe that...

[ezbie]

Hi Ezble

Sorry to contradict you, but 4/4 and 4/8 doesn't sound the same at all and Live reacts correctly.

First digit is the number of beats in a bar, second digit is the value of the beat.
So 4/8 is 2 times quicker than 4/4.

Why would you think 4/4 and 4/8 sound the same ? What would be the purpose ?

This is what I learn in music theory, and you can just check it on wikipedia if you don't believe that...

For me that was settled, but anyways, you're wrong.

If you go to a conservatoire and get a good foundation in music you'll know 4/8 doesn't sound two times faster. If you learned it that way you learned it wrong, period. The difference between 4/4 and 4/8 is a notational difference, it should NOT affect how many beats per minute you have in a song, ever.
Now, if you have a score written in 4/4 and change it to 4/8 and try to play it, you'll indeed get the song being played at a different speed, but again the metronome should sound the same, it's only the duration of the notes that will change.

I won't be discussing this. Try opening Cubase and Pro Tools and playing around with the metronome and you'll see it doesn't work like in Ableton.

[jestermgee]

Placing levels of education aside, you can open the help box and hover over the values to know what they do.

Now I may be just another "uneducated" user who doesn't play in a band and knows nothing of what a "conservatoire" is nor the level of education one would get from that but maybe that helps to just move through things like this by simply reading and using my ears and eyes to solve the problem:

From the help box in Live when you hover over the time signature:
First Number = Numerator (Beats in a Bar)
Second Number = Denominator (Length of a beat)

For the uneducated users like me I read this as it tells me:
4/4

Bar is 4 beats long (I hear a downbeat every 4 beats)
There is a beat every 1/4 of a bar

4/8
Bar is still 4 beats long (still a downbeat every 4 beats)
Beat now occurs every 1/8th of a bar so this to me suggests based on the laws of physics and my limited understanding of the universe, that there are now 2 beats triggering in the space where 1 previously was (so audibly this will be 2x faster)

However if I switch this around:
8/4

Now I have a bar that is 8 beats long with a beat every 1/4 of a bar (4 beats per bar). It appears the same speed as 4/4 but now the downbeat is every 8 not 4.

So to me, this all makes perfect sense and if you go and test this out in ANY other DAW it basically equates to the exact same result because we are dealing with time divisions for a timeline, not musical notation specifically... you will get the same metronome behaviour and the time division in your arrangement will adjust accordingly in all DAWs because this is how it works.

I tested your theory in both Maschine and Reaper here and they both operate in the same way as Ableton. I then spent some extra time on YT looking at this and it appears it works in the same way too so to convince me otherwise I would need you to post a video of what you mean and how it differs because I see it work the same way in all the DAWs I use.

I may have things wrong or misunderstand something there myself and maybe to the more educated it does appear wrong but as mentioned, every single DAW operates this way so it is not just an Ableton "issue".

[Calagan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_(music)

Please just read that.
You don't have to trust me, or trust the fact that I actually studied music theory, but I think Wikipedia is quite an authority you can trust, specially regarding something so simple...

[[jur]]

Ezble, please stay correct with others.
They explained how to access the feature you want. It's ok to play bad faith, but at least do it with humour and respect to those who helped you.
thx
j