MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
aphex2000
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by aphex2000 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:05 pm

cyberglad wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:04 am
Rewriting Ableton for the native M1 should be similar to rewriting it for iOS (code and function-wise). At least, this is what I've taken from the Apple Presentation.
Sorry but that's rubbish and it's wrong to constantly defend audio developers for their mac shenanigans (not addressing you exclusively here). If you kept up with SDK changes over the years (and the 3rd party libraries you use did the same) it's a matter of recompiling it in the best case scenario. If it isn't you probably slept on your homework in the past years and it's now creeping up to you - all changes were signalled well in advance.

There's some complexity when you use custom drivers (e.g. Elektron Overbridge) but mostly developers have dug their own grave on this as they did during the Catalina change and excusing their "better late than never" approach is just unprofessional. If you don't want to play by Apple's rules, don't support the plattform. But don't deliver 6 months late and blame Apple for your negligence.

jonljacobi
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by jonljacobi » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:30 pm

That's a lot of ifs and Apple's moving target is not always a benevolent behavior. The company is moving back to a completely closed platform, which can be great, or can bite you in the ass as it did once before. This time it's a bit different because of their large mobile device audience and that ARM is hardly new for them.

On the other hand, smaller developers have limited resources compared to the Apples and Adobes of the world and it costs a lot to track and implement all this stuff. With another huge market out there, it could be a tough call, or at least not an urgent task.

All that said, porting isn't nearly as big a deal as it was 15 years ago. It shouldn't be a major issue but I certainly don't expect everyone to be on board at the get-go.

Additionally, as nice as the new hardware is claimed to be (we'll see soon), there's zero reason to switch to it at the moment. Unless of course, you're just one of those people who has to have the bleeding edge stuff to bring meaning to your life.

Bottom line, I wouldn't expect M1 supported until at least a few months after 11 is released. Then again, I didn't expect lane comping, so who knows?

Mrkillface
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Mrkillface » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:00 pm

Alternate take: Mac OS accounts for ~10% of computers currently in use while windows accounts for @ 87%. Apple has decided to change architecture for reasons that may benefit Apple, but so far appears to be of zero short to mid term benefit to software developers and possibly to their detriment in the long term (as this seems to make switching to Apple branded apps a no brainer from a user standpoint).

I'd be surprised if most software developers see even 1% of their users switching to the M1 processor in the next year or two. It's on Apple to make things work if they wanna see that change.

Also remember, that this is just another brick in the road to being forced to sell their software in the app store and pay the 30% tariff that comes with that. I doubt developers who currently sell directly are in any rush to get locked into that delivery model.

Tuur
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Tuur » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:12 am

Mrkillface wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:00 pm
Alternate take: Mac OS accounts for ~10% of computers currently in use while windows accounts for @ 87%.

...

I'd be surprised if most software developers see even 1% of their users switching to the M1 processor in the next year or two. It's on Apple to make things work if they wanna see that change.
I'm pretty sure the 10/90 rule is not true for the Live user base though. Which is the topic of discussion. Related to that I also expect a much higher M1 switcher rate.

Like others have posted, and I'm not saying Ableton is one of them, a lot of devs aren't keeping up with the latest. Which admittedly isn't always easy as Apple likes to move fast, but it's a smarter strategy. Looking at Algoriddim again, they always drop their updates the moment a new iOS or macOS is publicly available. It's because they move in step with the new dev tools / updates Apple provides. Not because they are a huge developer.

I've seen developers blaming Apple for incompatibility problems when the underlying reason was their own use of API's that were on the black (deprecated) list for years. I'm not saying Apple is perfect, and they introduce bugs and challenges too, but being a dev myself I think they're doing a pretty good job.

Mrkillface
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Mrkillface » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:41 pm

There's a big difference between keeping up to date on the latest dev kit and rewriting your entire application for a new architecture / operating system.

None of us can say for sure what percentage of Ableton users are on / moving to Mac OS, but I can say for certain that 80%-90% of potential new customers are on windows because that's what windows market share is.

I can also say for certain that Apple is going to make it very difficult to sell software for Macs (just like iPad/phones are now) without paying Apple their 30% app store cut in the very near future and that should have everyone worried. Because I promise you that developers are going to pass that cost on to you and me.

Tarekith
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Tarekith » Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:22 am

I've been using Live 11 on Big Sur the last couple of days and so far not a single issue. No issues at all with the upgrade actually, at least on my 16" MBP. Not saying that's a recomendation, but if there are any issues I'm guessing they are minor or mainly due to 3rd party plug ins most likely.

Whew!
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Tuur
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Tuur » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:25 am

Mrkillface wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:41 pm
There's a big difference between keeping up to date on the latest dev kit and rewriting your entire application for a new architecture / operating system.
This is certainly not a case of rewriting your entire application. Intel specific optimizations and older code is more accurate. A lot of work would have been done already if you would have kept up as APIs that support the new architecture have been introduced over years. E.g. Abe has been working hard on Metal lately, which is mandatory for M1, has advantages (and headaches) for the current gen, and has been available for a couple of years.

None of us can say for sure what percentage of Ableton users are on / moving to Mac OS, but I can say for certain that 80%-90% of potential new customers are on windows because that's what windows market share is.
Windows total market share <> Windows audio / video creatives market share. And with the new chips Apple will likely grow more market share there again. You're right about the first part though.

I can also say for certain that Apple is going to make it very difficult to sell software for Macs (just like iPad/phones are now) without paying Apple their 30% app store cut in the very near future and that should have everyone worried.
Not true. On Mac the App store stays optional (as per Apple - imagine the $#!+storm). Maybe they'll change that line multiple years down the road, but it's certainly not a given 'in the very near future' as macOS as a platform is very different from iOS.

Machinesworking
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:28 pm

Mrkillface wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:00 pm
Alternate take:
You could have just said baseless assumptions and it would have worked. Ableton's Windows to Mac OS market share is probably not any different than it was 15 years ago when I sat down with one of the guys from Ableton who told me it was a 50/50 split between the two. It's possible it's even leaning towards Mac OS at this point.

Mrkillface
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Mrkillface » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:06 pm

There's already a ^%$& storm going on about the app store. Apple doesn't care. Look at what's going on with fortnite.

Look at what happened to Native Instruments. It's actually breaking some of their keyboards /controllers.

We can debate all day, but the reality is that if it were easy and profitable, it would already be done and we'd all be doing something more useful right now.


Machinesworking wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:28 pm
You could have just said baseless assumptions
I based my assumptions on OS Market share. You based yours on a conversation you had 15 years ago? cool.

Tuur
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Tuur » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:45 am

Mrkillface wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:06 pm
There's already a ^%$& storm going on about the app store. Apple doesn't care. Look at what's going on with fortnite.
They do care. They're just not going to roll over because Sweeney wants them to (ironically because he basically wants to do the exact same thing himself). If you (as a user or dev) don't like it, leave the platform. Works the same way in the console industry by the way. But that's a completely different discussion.

Mrkillface wrote: I based my assumptions on OS Market share. You based yours on a conversation you had 15 years ago? cool.
And how large do you think the Mac market share was back then? Total Windows market share means almost nothing in this case.

Mrkillface
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Mrkillface » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:16 pm

Tuur wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:45 am
And how large do you think the Mac market share was back then? Total Windows market share means almost nothing in this case.
Mac vs. windows Market share has barely changed in the 20 years or so that I've been working in tech and making music. And Market share means a lot actually. Regardless of what the current Ableton userbase looks like, windows users are still a much larger group of potential customers and I bet Ableton would love to have them. As a company that sells expensive software, I'm sure they don't want people thinking that they also need to purchase a $2,000 laptop to run it correctly.

Back then there were distinct technological advantages (Firewire vs USB etc.) and barriers (A lot of industry software wasn't even available on windows) to using one platform over another that are more or less irrelevant now. Debates about which operating system is actually better aside... Now a days, most users would see zero real world benefit using one platform over the other.

What people use now is more a matter of preference (or probably budget) than anything else. Maybe these new chips will change that. Who knows? If Apple can more or less unify ios and Mac OS, that will certainly change the lay of the land as far as userbase size goes. We'll see.
Tuur wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:45 am
They do care. They're just not going to roll over because Sweeney wants them to (ironically because he basically wants to do the exact same thing himself). If you (as a user or dev) don't like it, leave the platform. Works the same way in the console industry by the way. But that's a completely different discussion.
Don't be silly. Leaving isn't a real option for most developers and you know it.

I'm sure most devs would agree that the app store is a good thing in theory. But if you asked them how much it's worth to them, I guarantee you no one would answer "30% of all my profits forever".

Anywho, I'm going to pick up one of the new macs and as soon as I feel like I can safely plug all my equipment into it without turning my equipment into bricks, I'll let you know how it turns out. I'm sure ableton will run on the new processors as is(through Rosetta). Whether it runs well, we'll have to wait and see.

Machinesworking
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:37 am

Mrkillface wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:06 pm
I based my assumptions on OS Market share. You based yours on a conversation you had 15 years ago? cool.
Because we are talking about music, music applications and the creative fields in general. No one really cares if Windows is installed on
85% of the machines out there, if we're talking about checkout machines at stores or even insurance companies. Who gives a rats ass about that.

We are specially talking about music and audio, on Ableton's forum no less. That number is directly related to the conversation at hand.
Now try to follow this, VST/AU/AAX developers and other audio companies are not leaving or going to leave Mac OS in droves because of some arbitrary scenario you cooked up. Mac OS is literally half of their income, in some case higher, some lower, doesn't matter. In every case it's nowhere near 15%

It might surprise you but not every Windows user is interested in doing creative work, but Apple have actively courted creatives. In no way is there even near an 85% potential musicians market for Windows. It is what it is, in my personal experience audio types go PC to Mac, not the other way around. (barring a VEP server or two)

Tuur
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Tuur » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:44 am

Mrkillface wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:16 pm
I'm sure most devs would agree that the app store is a good thing in theory. But if you asked them how much it's worth to them, I guarantee you no one would answer "30% of all my profits forever".
Read what you're saying. FWIW most devs think it is a good idea to publish on the App store, so there must be enough value in it for them.

Every platform takes a cut. And people generally want more.

Mrkillface
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Mrkillface » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:43 pm

Tuur wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:44 am
Read what you're saying. FWIW most devs think it is a good idea to publish on the App store, so there must be enough value in it for them.

Every platform takes a cut. And people generally want more.
That's not true at all. You can distribute apps on WIndows, Mac OS, Linux etc. for free.

However, if you want to distribute a mobile app, you have 2 choices: Pay apple/google 30% or have no customers. Because if you try to distribute your software on your own, it's going to turn up on like the 5th page of search results and people are going to get giant flashing messages on their devices telling them not to install it because it could be a virus.

Of course Apple wants that on their Mac line too. Why wouldn't they?

Tuur
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Re: MacOS Big Sur and M1 (Apple Processor) support

Post by Tuur » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:17 am

Mrkillface wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:43 pm
That's not true at all. You can distribute apps on WIndows, Mac OS, Linux etc. for free.
You're right. I wasn't talking about the classic OS flavors in this context. Almost every other regulated platform works more or less the same way though. Either you give up privacy (and pay the price) or you pay directly. Amazon, Ebay, Uber, Playstation, Xbox, Spotify (as an artist), etc. It's their store.

Mrkillface wrote:Because if you try to distribute your software on your own, it's going to turn up on like the 5th page of search results and people are going to get giant flashing messages on their devices telling them not to install it because it could be a virus.
Which is sadly pretty accurate a lot of the time. And a big reason why I love the App store.

Also, before the App store you'd have about 0% chance as a small developer to make any money at all (yes, there are exceptions). But don't idealize the past. I come from a time where you had to find a publisher. Who took a far bigger share than 30%.

If anything the App store kickstarted a whole new economy. Now you can push a button and reach 1.5 billion active devices world wide just like that... All taken care of.

But I guess there's always something to complain about.

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