Control of macro variations

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mjhe
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:18 am

Control of macro variations

Post by mjhe » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:26 am

Macro variations seem useful to me in a performance environment, but there doesn't seem to be anyway to map them to any midi controller including the Push. This really seems to eliminate their usefulness (I don't really see a use case for them when sitting at the desk).

Am I missing something?

schlam
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: Control of macro variations

Post by schlam » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:11 am

..look at maxforlive.com.
Someone made a device for that and it allows to morph between macro variations..

Valiumdupeuple
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:22 pm

There's this device, and I'm currently working on a handy Push control over this.

IMage_Engine
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Control of macro variations

Post by IMage_Engine » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:29 am

Where did this all end up at?

.marc.
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by .marc. » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:03 pm

yes... i payed a lot of money for this "upgrade", but cant use ableton anymore after upgrade to 11... the macro-variations where THE reason for my upgrade. But: cant use it, because no automation of that "feature" (cant believe it... why in hell i need this... no benefit... want to use it like automation for a "variation"... till second xxx variation 1... after that automation.. variation 27... no. not possible. no mapping available).

on the other hand i cant use ableton anymore, because after 4 tracks i think i have a 286 PC from the early 90. its an absolute shame to release THIS and earn money with it. i mean its a "high price"-DAW and now you can see, that the users are the "tester" of this.

pottering
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by pottering » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:10 pm

You can already record automation with the Variations, it will simply record the Macro knob changes.

Which shows why you can't automate the Variations separately, it would obviously conflict with recorded automation for any of the Macro knobs.

It would need an entire new sub-system to manage it, I guess either a big rework of Modulation or a fully new 3rd (4th? 5th? Don't know if CC and MPE count) type of automation envelope.
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IMage_Engine
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by IMage_Engine » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:30 pm

pottering wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:10 pm
You can already record automation with the Variations, it will simply record the Macro knob changes.

Which shows why you can't automate the Variations separately, it would obviously conflict with recorded automation for any of the Macro knobs.

It would need an entire new sub-system to manage it, I guess either a big rework of Modulation or a fully new 3rd (4th? 5th? Don't know if CC and MPE count) type of automation envelope.
With respect; sorry, what you are saying is absolutely not correct. This should be obvious by tools like smooth automator m4l...which are just managing the lom. Its rather the outcome of directives by the devs and perceived workflow.
It needs to just be the parallel of snapshot morphing and i have no idea why its NOT programmed like this except for preset surfers...morphing is a performance tool and in programmatic terms its a very very basic state transition NOT a state jump we are after!
Having a transition slider and automating that is the obvious simple solution. Advanced would be the chain type weighting ie for racks, to go between multiple variations
Cheers

.marc.
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by .marc. » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:55 pm

pottering wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:10 pm
You can already record automation with the Variations, it will simply record the Macro knob changes.

Which shows why you can't automate the Variations separately, it would obviously conflict with recorded automation for any of the Macro knobs.

It would need an entire new sub-system to manage it, I guess either a big rework of Modulation or a fully new 3rd (4th? 5th? Don't know if CC and MPE count) type of automation envelope.
Sorry, but that is not correct. Ableton has something like this implemented. This function you can find ANYWHERE. Thats one the reasons where Ableton is so fast: You can automate all within seconds -> "show automation" -> configure like you need -> finished

The other (or i dont understand) point you told is to record the automation: this is only possible with MIDI Mapping. The function ALL the others (me also) needed are, that the "hide buttons for MIDI Mapping" are shown by standard and to automate.

So the Function is there, but does not work with "standard"-automation. What does a function to scroll between variations and choose them, but you cant use them to bild a track... only with 3rd part hardware. i mean ableton has push... why does this function not be available there in standard. i need to configure the push in user-mode to use this "feature"... its the same as mercedes build in a super innovated feature but you need a vw to use it... ;) its an absolute no go from ableton to release this "upgrade"...

Regards
Marc

pottering
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by pottering » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:44 pm

What I said is easily testable, you can record automation for the Macro knobs of a Rack (EDIT: you can even use the Variations themselves to set the automation), then press a Variation of that same Rack, it will disable the Macro knobs' automation, which proves there is a conflict between Variations' (potential) automation and Macro knobs' automation.

Manually pressing Variations (with mouse, MIDI/key assign, or virtual cable routing/scripts/M4L that fake user input) makes sense, as manual user input disables automation everywhere already, it is predictable behaviour for Live users.

But Variation automation disabling Macro knobs automation would be a completely unexpected and new behaviour in Live, it would actually be a HUGE change in how Live is expected to work.

Remember how the tiniest changes in Live throw people completely off, just moving a button triggers multiple posts per week from confused people (who knows how many emails support gets about the same things.).
Last edited by pottering on Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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.marc.
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by .marc. » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:56 pm

Maybe i dont understand correct. sorry for that.

but here i my example:

i put i group "around" the EQ Eight -> Map a frequency from ... to "Macro 1" -> Right click -> "Show automation" ---> voila...

the same easy way should be available for this new feature (the variation must be played automatically at this point or need an other way to activate. maybe an other macro with 0/1)..

IMage_Engine
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:38 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Control of macro variations

Post by IMage_Engine » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:09 pm

pottering wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:44 pm
What I said is easily testable, you can record automation for the Macro knobs of a Rack (EDIT: you can even use the Variations themselves to set the automation), then press a Variation of that same Rack, it will disable the Macro knobs' automation, which proves there is a conflict between Variations' (potential) automation and Macro knobs' automation.

Manually pressing Variations (with mouse, MIDI/key assign, or virtual cable routing/scripts/M4L that fake user input) makes sense, as manual user input disables automation everywhere already, it is predictable behaviour for Live users.

But Variation automation disabling Macro knobs automation would be a completely unexpected and new behaviour in Live, it would actually be a HUGE change in how Live is expected to work.

Remember how the tiniest changes in Live throw people completely off, just moving a button triggers multiple posts per week from confused people (who knows how many emails support gets about the same things.).
I totally get ui/ux consistency...its my day job.....But im not sure you are understanding what im/op is saying...btw do you play realtime performances at gigs? Macro knob automation is granular and is itself a atate transition...im saying that the logical extension for power use is to be able to have a simple real-time morph from a single control source and thats what the op was about otherwise Its half baked solution. practically every other ui that uses snapshot paradigm adds the obvious extension of transitioning the snapshot. Not to mention that state change is programming 101.
Why would variation automation implicitly have to disable macro knob automation?...a single source controller writing the automation would of course not be concerned with instance control. Ive been using live since 2005 and a remote script programmer...having spent many years in ui/ux with focus on performance...with complete respect; power users of Live have driven its direction and pushing the boundaries
To be a slave to 'what exists' is to deny the growth of Live. Your example describes current operation; yes...but that doesnt mean that its right, the best way or how it should stay. m4l device isnt faking anything, its riding the lom in a better way than the ableton strategy engineers because of deeper understanding of creative workflows. This has a very complex psychological foundation because great musicians are very right brain and great programmers are very left....
Bottom line: variations need a parent single source control that allows variation morphing ie infinitely variable state transition as the op has indicated without m4l hacks IMHO

Street Spirit
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Location: MI

Re: Control of macro variations

Post by Street Spirit » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:48 am

Yeah the only work around i have found is to just resample the variations. Oh well it works i guess. I do think some kind of way to map to a macro would be ideal too.

The Rabbits
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Re: Control of macro variations

Post by The Rabbits » Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:48 am

This may or may not work for you, but you can just duplicate the chain for each variation and automate the chain selector.
I'm pretty sure devices on the other chains don't use CPU.

Street Spirit
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Location: MI

Re: Control of macro variations

Post by Street Spirit » Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:56 pm

Yeah there is no way right now to automate or map anything to the macro variation. Think they are geared more towards a live performance. Appreciate your input though.

schlam
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:51 am

Re: Control of macro variations

Post by schlam » Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:10 pm

I made this device some times ago, maybe it can helps you...it is still beta and was more a "proove of concept" you can morph between macro variation and map each variation.

https://maxforlive.com/library/device/7 ... io-version

It surely need an update...

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